XML is now patented by Microsoft

Anything and everything that's related to OGRE or the wider graphics field that doesn't fit into the other forums.
Lioric
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:25 pm

XML is now patented by Microsoft

Post by Lioric » Tue May 31, 2005 5:36 pm

read:

http://software.silicon.com/application ... 795,00.htm

I have never used this format, and probably will never use it for games. I stick to my chunk binary format

Lioric
0 x

User avatar
sinbad
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 19265
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:19 pm
Location: Guernsey, Channel Islands
x 2
Contact:

Post by sinbad » Tue May 31, 2005 6:01 pm

.. and it's utterly unenforceable and has already been subject to widespread incredulity throughout the IT world. If MS ever tries to enforce it, they will be laughed out of court (as well as losing).

/me goes to wipe his arse with the nearest software patent directive
0 x

User avatar
IoN_PuLse
Goblin
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 5:54 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by IoN_PuLse » Tue May 31, 2005 10:16 pm

How is this even possible, given that XML has been used for years and wasn't originally created by microsoft...
0 x

AssiDragon
Greenskin
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:10 pm
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Post by AssiDragon » Tue May 31, 2005 10:19 pm

Hm. I have an idea. Let's patent HTML.

Software patents are the worst idea, ever.
0 x
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

Drew_Benton
Halfling
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:58 pm

Post by Drew_Benton » Tue May 31, 2005 10:20 pm

IoN_PuLse wrote:How is this even possible, given that XML has been used for years and wasn't originally created by microsoft...
Well closer reading is needed - XML is NOT patented by MicroSoft -
The patent, which was granted by the US patent office on Tuesday, is for XML serialisation and deserialisation - the conversion of a programming object into an XML file and vice versa.
So using XML is fine, it's just that if you use serialisation techniques, something commonly done with XML, then MS gets ya.

Still an outrage though, but this was filed in 2001, so ... :? Nothing we can do about it really.
0 x

Lioric
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:25 pm

Post by Lioric » Tue May 31, 2005 10:27 pm

serialization = save file / put to stream
deserialization = load file / get from stream

doesnt look too much usable from here

Lioric
0 x

User avatar
xavier
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 9481
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:03 am
Location: Dublin, CA, US

Post by xavier » Tue May 31, 2005 10:56 pm

XML Serialization is the basis for .NET Web Services. It's rather fundamental to their overall strategy.
0 x

User avatar
sinbad
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 19265
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:19 pm
Location: Guernsey, Channel Islands
x 2
Contact:

Post by sinbad » Tue May 31, 2005 11:07 pm

XML object serialisation was also done way before 2001. Remember, XML started in 1996, converting objects to/from XML was not a new idea in 2001. It's laughable really and wouldn't give it any credit.
"Studies routinely rank our innovations among the most significant across any industry. A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 2003, which provided an overall assessment of Microsoft’s intellectual property, found that Microsoft continues to develop relevant patents and gave us one of the highest scores on the list of technology companies in that category."
Given the overall quality of software patents in the US, I don't think that's anything to crow about, Bill. Even if you're near the top of the dungpile, you're still full of shit. :evil:
0 x

User avatar
sinbad
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 19265
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:19 pm
Location: Guernsey, Channel Islands
x 2
Contact:

Post by sinbad » Tue May 31, 2005 11:17 pm

On the positive side, I actually quite like seeing these sorts of patents granted. Because it shows how completely ludicrous the whole software patent system is, giving us a better chance of getting it rejected here in Europe.
0 x

User avatar
xavier
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 9481
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:03 am
Location: Dublin, CA, US

Post by xavier » Tue May 31, 2005 11:22 pm

sinbad wrote:XML object serialisation was also done way before 2001. Remember, XML started in 1996, converting objects to/from XML was not a new idea in 2001. It's laughable really and wouldn't give it any credit.
It was not a new idea, but it also was available to patent, and MS simply got in line first. Like I said, it's core to their .NET Web Services architecture, so I am not surprised they did it.

I'd have to look at the actual patent to see the process they patented (you can't patent an idea, only its implementation, even if the implementation is just a sketch), but I'll be willing to bet that the implementation that is patented relies on features of the C# language. Given that the robustness of XML Serialization in C#/.NET Framework precludes any need to re-engineer it, it's sort of moot.

Besides, Novell exploited in Mono, MS's strategic mistake of handing .NET over to ECMA, and they (Novell) have already navigated all the legal hurdles MS would have set in their path.
0 x

User avatar
Kentamanos
Minaton
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:08 am
Location: Dallas, TX

Post by Kentamanos » Tue May 31, 2005 11:26 pm

xavier wrote:I'd have to look at the actual patent to see the process they patented (you can't patent an idea, only its implementation, even if the implementation is just a sketch), but I'll be willing to bet that the implementation that is patented relies on features of the C# language. Given that the robustness of XML Serialization in C#/.NET Framework precludes any need to re-engineer it, it's sort of moot.
Just briefly browsing it, a lot of it seems to be based upon C# "attributes" (which are a language feature that actually lets you do some pretty cool things via reflection).
0 x

Lioric
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:25 pm

Post by Lioric » Tue May 31, 2005 11:40 pm

sinbad wrote:On the positive side, I actually quite like seeing these sorts of patents granted. Because it shows how completely ludicrous the whole software patent system is, giving us a better chance of getting it rejected here in Europe.
good point :wink:

Lioric
0 x

User avatar
Kencho
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 4011
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:28 pm
Location: Burgos, Spain
x 1
Contact:

Post by Kencho » Tue May 31, 2005 11:51 pm

I'm afraid that if software patents keep this pace, US software developers will end moving to Europe or Asia... and the US software market too...

Anyways, this is an abomination for any software developer.

PS: Have you noticed everything related to the XMLConverter tool (including exporters/importers) might become illegal in the US? Just a random thought... :x

Wanna "kill Bill" :evil:
0 x
Image

User avatar
Jezze
Halfling
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:47 pm
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Jezze » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:08 am

Im not sure how it works in the US but at least in Sweden this is true, If you are going to patent something there are at least two criteria that has to be fulfilled.

1, Your solution solves a technical problem that is of a non software type.
2. Your solution can not already be commonly known.

This patent has no chance in hell to be excepted here at least.
0 x

User avatar
Kencho
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 4011
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:28 pm
Location: Burgos, Spain
x 1
Contact:

Post by Kencho » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:26 am

AFAIK, there is another restriction in addition to those two: There must haven't been patented before.
Also, I remember to have read that you must demonstrate that you're the inventor, but I'm not sure this is true at all...
0 x
Image

User avatar
:wumpus:
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 3067
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:53 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by :wumpus: » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:03 pm

They're doing their best to remove all the fun from developing software. I imagine in a few years law education is more important than computer science, creativity and intelligence in designing programs.
0 x

Tyn
Gremlin
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:40 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Tyn » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:28 pm

Does anyone else remember when Microsoft patented the double click on a mouse? It was a couple of years ago IIRC. Does anyone else get the feeling that it's MS trying to bury Open Source software such as Linux?

Also, since Sourceforge servers are across the world, surely they would have no chance of getting them to remove software that breaks their patents?
0 x
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Douglas Adams

http://www.spacecolonization.net
2080: Space Colonization

User avatar
sinbad
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 19265
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:19 pm
Location: Guernsey, Channel Islands
x 2
Contact:

Post by sinbad » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:57 pm

It's irrelevant whether they got there first; if the idea was commonly known, it's not patentable. I bet no-one's patented the idea of picking ones nose with a tuning fork (I'm ready to be corrected on that though), but that doesn't mean it deserves a patent. Patents are supposed to cover 'inventions' and you can't invent something that already exists, or is 'obvious' to anyone with a reasonable grounding in the field.

Or rather, you shouldn't be able to but the USPO is too lame and too money-grabbing to actually bother to check anything anymore.
0 x

User avatar
shaft
Halfling
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:54 am

Post by shaft » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:43 pm

We are a country of lawyers feeding lawyers. We create nothing but litigation, and middle other peoples products.

All in all, we are doing everything in our power to make sure that we are not a super power for too much longer.
0 x
- Shaft (He's a bad motha... Shut yo' mouth)

Lioric
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Google Summer of Code Mentor
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:25 pm

Post by Lioric » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:20 pm

The main problem i see about this is not the patent stuff, but how people is angry/scared/shocked because of this (not particularly here)

Why using XML ? (rethorical question, please)
If MS wants to patent/protect/owns it, its ok by me (if they invented it), what are the special and unique features of a text based parser file format that you cant do on your own ?
Specially, in game/entertaiment the xml format is not well suited, despite some out there using text files for everthing in their game (id software), binary formats is and continue to be the best way, excluding configuration and gui files, but in this case even a simply ini file will do

Of course the patent situation of usa is something shameful, do you know that the 3dsMax rollout panel is patented, you cant make a group of controls that rollup on a click

Im planning on patenting in the usa the smile icons, :D = 5 bucks
Do you know where i can get a usa patent request paper?

:D :D :D :D , wow that was 20 bucks more for me

Liroic
0 x

User avatar
LordMyth
Gremlin
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by LordMyth » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:24 pm

All the poor frightened Americans may move to my house in Brussels, I'll give them a bed and breakfast everyday! Ah well... at least if the software patents aren't accepted by that disgusting EU Commission. And then they ask themselves why everyone's against a general EU base-lawbook (I don't know how it's called in English), as if we would want more of those ultra-liberal things like software patents.
0 x
Have a kiss from me!
Gentoo Linux on AMD64 3200+
NForce4 Chipset
Dual Channel DDR 2x512MB
PCX 16 GeForce 6600 256MB

User avatar
xavier
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 9481
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:03 am
Location: Dublin, CA, US

Post by xavier » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:31 pm

Lioric wrote: Do you know where i can get a usa patent request paper?
http://www.uspto.gov/ebc/efs/index.html

;)
0 x

User avatar
LordMyth
Gremlin
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by LordMyth » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:10 pm

Guess the smilies would go to 'Design patents'... wonder what they would do if you actually filed it in... make you pay a lot for you waisting their time?
0 x
Have a kiss from me!
Gentoo Linux on AMD64 3200+
NForce4 Chipset
Dual Channel DDR 2x512MB
PCX 16 GeForce 6600 256MB

kerick
Gnoblar
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:14 am

Post by kerick » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:30 pm

as far as I know there is a small fee to file a request...I could be wrong though. I'm going to patent the finger, that way everyone that has them owes me a beer.
0 x

User avatar
sinbad
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 19265
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:19 pm
Location: Guernsey, Channel Islands
x 2
Contact:

Post by sinbad » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:58 pm

kerick wrote:as far as I know there is a small fee to file a request...I could be wrong though. I'm going to patent the finger, that way everyone that has them owes me a beer.
Just replace 'small' with 'large' and you'd be right ;) That's why the patent office is not exactly an impartial witness when it comes to proposing what should and should not be patentable.

@Lioric: XML is useful everywhere as a universal interchange format. That's why Sony chose it for Collada. Fair enough you don't want to use it at runtime, or for things you have to extensively hand-edit, but for interchange of structured data it's perfect. Tools, tools, tools.
0 x

Post Reply