XML is now patented by Microsoft

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shaft
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Post by shaft »

Patents cost around $10,000 to file, and hundreds of thousands to defend. Its easy to see how this system is designed to protect the poor individual inventors from the rich corporations who might steal their idea.

Whats funny is that ACTUALLY was the intent of the patent system.

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Post by jacmoe »

Witty. :)

Speaking of which: Some japanese company filed a patent on the Hans Christian Andersen stuff, so everytime we in Denmark uses some of our heritage, we will have to pay for it. 8)
Ridiculous.
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zander76
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Post by zander76 »

Hello all,

As stupid as it may be, I am going to put some points in here. MS is not stupid and Bill is not running the company. There is a board of directors that tell everybody what to do.

Ok, so on to the real point. If there were now current patents before MS did this, that doesn't have anything to do with Open Source (for all the people that think the world is after them, use your medication), its to do with them making sure that someone can't patent it before them and then turn around and start a suit againts them.

Bill, may have done a good job screwing everybody when he started the company but do you really thing that he is every were all the time. No there are a group of people that handle MS and they are composed of suits such as lawyers and directors.

For everybody here, this is stupid and you should have been around opensource long enough to know it. They aren't going to take any chances especially since they are baseing a lot of there tech on it. Business is business nothing more.

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Post by :wumpus: »

What exactly is your point, zander76? Microsoft is one of the companies lobbying for software patents here in Europe, wether it's run by Bill or by a board of directors, or by aliens is not important.

It might not be stupid from a business perspective,as they are the biggest and can buy any patent they want, but that doesn't neccesarily mean that it's also a good idea from *our* perspective, right?

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Post by AssiDragon »

Your point is? They patented XML serializing. Unless I'm severely mistaken any XML serialization can now be risked getting stormed by MS in the name of patents.
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Post by Lioric »

@zander76

We dont say that MS is going to be after all XML users that dont pay patent rights

This post is to talk about how stupid (if you want to use a severe word as this, and looks you want) the patent system is in usa

Thanks for the resume on how a company's board is handled, but rest assured that we already know it, we have comercial companies too

Lioric

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regress
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Post by regress »

jesus guys, zander was specifically pointing out that it seems more of a pre-emptive patent, since it would cost them less to file for it than to defend against someone else's patent in court.

It's not an acceptance of the patent system, merely seems to be a bit of defensive manuevering, though it's obvious that it puts other users of such a process in relative jepardy, as they are now in a position that MS was defending itself against.

More likely than not, it was never meant to be used, merely just kept there as a way of taking away a club from a upstart law firm looking to make a buck.

@lioric

he specifically pointed out bill as sinbad singled him out to say he's full of shit (which I have to agree that his attitude in general is fairly arrogant), Kencho said "Wanna Kill bill", but it's not only Bill Gates that makes these decisions.

So cool off guys.
regards

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Post by SuprChikn »

A bit OT, but anyway:
I seem to recall hearing that a number of years ago some pretty random guy was researching patent laws and stuff, and found that no-one had ever patented the wheelbarrow. So a bit of messing around, and he filled the patent under his name, and fairly quickly became quite rich off it.

There's also the case of the invention of the telephone, commonly attributed to Alexander Graham Bell, but it seems he probably shouldn't be.
It seems he and another guy (Elisha Gray, I think) were both independantly working on the problem, and both submitted a patent application within hours of each other.
However, Bell's design was somewhat lacking. And after a bit of money changed hands "under the table", Bell added some hand-drawn additions to his designs, improving it. And also making it look suspiciously like Gray's design. Bell's application was then accepted, and Gray's rejected, and the rest is history.

OK, you can have your thread back now :)

[edit] Hmm, a bit of looking around on the net about the wheelbarrow story suggests that is not true.
In fact, there is a common and totally false patent story about someone who successfully patented the wheelbarrow and immediately became rich by suing all wheel barrow manufacturers for patent infringement.
Oh well. [/edit]

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Post by LordMyth »

Never say MS is stupid, they are really smart. and evil.
=> smart + evil = Nightmare for others.
In America the problem is that the government is also smart and evil, and smart and evil people are friends of each other most of the times (not with e.g. Steve and Bill), take a look at the patent system:
'Patents cost around $10,000 to file, and hundreds of thousands to defend' >> evil part,
'Its easy to see how this system is designed to protect the poor individual inventors from the rich corporations who might steal their idea.' >> smart part to hide the evil.
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Post by Lioric »

LordMyth, i have to disagree with you in this, i think they (north america) are just evil with lots of money, nothing more

[warning: some political rants below]

Smart, in a money driven model, is when you get the money but the people who gave it to you are happy about it, i.e. doing a good product with good quality
Not just bombing every country and "making the favor" of managing their petroleum and taking away the money from back accounts in a witches hount

hope the usa nsa is not monitoring this post with their big spy facility, ha, and usa people talk a lot about the freedom....

[/rant]

Lioric

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Post by dorvo »

I for one, think this is nothing more than a ploy to grab more money.
I believe Microsoft will do nothing but drive the common use of XML into oblivion, just like Macromedia did when they bought ColdFusion from Allaire.
The fact that the US Patent Office allowed this isn't at all surprising, and this is nothing new from Microsoft. It has absolutely nothing to do with Bill Gates anymore, because Microsoft is counted as its own entity, evil or not. It just happens that Bill is the most recognized person associated with the tyranical company.

But, if this patent is specific enough in the implementation of XML serialization, then surely there must be other ways to handle the data. It doesn't matter whether it was Microsoft's plan to patent it before another company, my question is, why hasn't the WC3 patented it? Hell, they created XML in the first place! Or maybe they tried, and Microsoft just threw more money at the USPO than the WC3 could.

Regardless, this is atrocious. Microsoft is going to have control over something that has been and always should be common knowledge.

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Post by innovati »

I think you are taking this all wrong - they don't want to patent XML, just their format. They use XML as a basis for one of the file formats and are patenting it. They wlil then proceed to use it, and that means no open-source or free program, will be able to save/open this file type.

They really are only hurting themselves in the long run, because what if the inventor of XML decieds to patent :P All of a sudden they need something new.

I don't think we have to worry about MS's patent, but rather software patents.

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Post by paddy »

The idea that microsoft would patent something 'defensively' and not intend to use it against others would have to be rephrased 'against others they don't see as potential competitors worth destroying by any means.'

Anytime someone makes a generalized patent it sets a bad precedent. Next using a fork to scoop food and not just skewering it will be patented. Most tactics don't seem to be about protecting intellectual property as much as creating roadblocks around competitors getting their competing and independant solutions to market.

There is absolutely nothing innovative about serializing and deserializing the most recent fad format, I wonder if a means to 'new and innovative solution to bypass anti-trust laws' can be patented.....

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Post by scoby »

OT:
I believe an australian man successfully applied for a patent for the
wheel within the last few years. He didn't try to make any
money, he merely wanted to highlight how rediculous an unchecked
patent system can be...

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Post by Tsh't »

How could microsoft patent XML serialization as protocols like SOAP for web services existed before? It's all about sending objects. Microsoft uses its own proprietary format.
With innovati post I'm pretty confused with this patent...

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Post by jacmoe »

Tsh't wrote:Microsoft uses its own proprietary format.
That's probably exactly what they patented.
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Post by sinbad »

Nope, it's more general than that. Like pretty much all software patents, they might start from one thing but for filing, someone (probably the IP department) will change the wording to make it as general as they can get away with. Ambiguity and sweeping generalisations are very much in vogue, since that maximises their ability to rape other software developers with it. That's the case here too - it simply would not have raised the furore it has if that wasn't the case. When it comes to patents, assume nothing except that IP/legal departments are devious little scumbags and have no idea what the terms 'fair and reasonable' or 'common sense' means. They'd patent sex if they thought they could get away with it.

It appears some concrete, dateable prior art has already been found anyway.

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Post by jacmoe »

(Microsoft is claiming that) its innovations are "among the most significant across any industry".
Substitute innovations with plagiarism :P
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zander76
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Post by zander76 »

Hello guys,

Sorry, when I said it was stupid I didn't mean it to be offencive. I ment it as in its just isnt' worth worring about. MS is going to do there own thing and if they want your tech, they don't need a patent to get it. They will either just develop it themself or buy it from you and I am sure they have ways of not giving you a lot of choices.

So since MS is just about unstopable as far as law and resources are concerned, I personally think that it some lawyer working for MS that wants to make sure he/her is important (it's his/her job). So now everybody is pating him/her on the back due to fixing a pontental hole and saving them a lot of money.

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Post by jacmoe »

It's not Boost::Serialisation ? :)
It can serialise objects to xml, amongst other formats.
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Post by zander76 »

sinbad wrote:They'd patent sex if they thought they could get away with it.
Hahaha, for sure. Hopefully they don't :shock:

Its just laywers making money (i should have been a lawyer instead of a tech). The more patents they convince MS to get the more chance they can suie someone.. :) Making them more money on the other side. Money for filing and more for defending, its the perfect business model.. :twisted:

You may be guessing by now that I hate laywers a lot more then MS. They are the true evil of the world and even the evil behind MS.

Ben
ps. Disclaimer, some lawyers are nice people (incase there are any here).. :)
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Post by AssiDragon »

zander76 wrote:
Its just laywers making money (i should have been a lawyer instead of a tech). The more patents they convince MS to get the more chance they can suie someone.. :) Making them more money on the other side. Money for filing and more for defending, its the perfect business model.. :twisted:
The more patents MS has the more legal grounds it will have to kill competition, too... it's not just about lawyers ;)
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Post by SuprChikn »

scoby wrote:OT:
I believe an australian man successfully applied for a patent for the
wheel within the last few years. He didn't try to make any
money, he merely wanted to highlight how rediculous an unchecked
patent system can be...
Yep: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 418165.stm

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