What do yo think about bosses in games? (poll)

Anything and everything that's related to OGRE or the wider graphics field that doesn't fit into the other forums.

Should games have bosses in them?

Yes!
11
21%
No!
5
9%
Only if the bosses are easy
1
2%
Only if the bosses are difficult
2
4%
Only if the bosses are consistent with the gameplay
34
64%
 
Total votes: 53

User avatar
bugshake
Greenskin
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

What do yo think about bosses in games? (poll)

Post by bugshake »

Most action, adventure and rpg games have bosses in them at the end of every level.

I myself hate boss scenes because I'm very bad at them and I find them boring and repetative. Also, they usually have a different gameplay then the game. Also, in a lot of games you have to repeat the whole level to reach the boss. For me, this makes fighting bosses work instead of fun.

Prince of Persia II: Warrior Within is a brilliant game, but fighting the bosses is way more difficult then the rest of the game. I know I can beat every foe on expert level, but I can hardly beat the first boss on easy level.

So now I am very curious to what you all think?
User avatar
SuprChikn
Bugbear
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:10 am
Location: Melbourne, Aus
Contact:

Post by SuprChikn »

Bosses can be strange sometimes.

A lot of the time beating them requires a lot of repitition, just doing the same move/strategy over and over until they're dead.
Sometimes they are rediculously easy if you know what to do. eg: Half-Life 1 - the final boss. I went running for a bit of cover, hit a jump-pad, got up on one of the ledges, and found myself in a place where I could hide behind a rock from all of his attacks, and still shoot him and everything required to beat him without leaving my shelter. There was nothing he could do about it (oh, and there was a health pool just to one side, which I could step into between his attacks if i felt like it). Felt a bit ripped off after that one.

But generally I like end-level bosses. Dunno why really.
User avatar
haffax
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
x 7
Contact:

Post by haffax »

I do like bosses too, but they can be overdone. Like Final Fantasy VI, the last fight with this three stages monster, where a fight usually takes 30-45min. If you then loose, the motivation to try again vanished very fast for me. It is ok, when they are difficult, they should be. But the fight must not last forever. And it must not take a while to get to him from the last save point (like this damn spider in Metroid Fusion) and they must not be like three/four in a row without possibility of saving/regeneration (like in CaveStory).
team-pantheon programmer
creators of Rastullahs Lockenpracht
User avatar
Chris Jones
Lich
Posts: 1742
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:11 pm
Location: Gosport, South England
x 1

Post by Chris Jones »

where a fight usually takes 30-45min. If you then loose, the motivation to try again vanished very fast for me
same here, well i dont like rpg games, but generally bosses or even levels that take that long to do i dont like because i usually die just before the end and then i cant b bothered to do it all again

i think bosses are good on some games and not on others really. bosses are gr8 in old games, the very old 1s where u run from left to right, the levels arent really long etc, theyre fun, but im not too keen on having bosses on new games as such

besides, it also depends what style the game is, if its a game trying 2 go for realistic gameplay etc, its stupid having a boss, cos a boss is suposedly very hard to kill and really accurate etc it would ruin the game really
User avatar
Kencho
OGRE Retired Moderator
OGRE Retired Moderator
Posts: 4011
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:28 pm
Location: Burgos, Spain
x 2
Contact:

Post by Kencho »

Bosses can be great, though there are some stereotypical aspects I've never been with.

For instance, why you have to fight a boss in a relatively closed space? Can't you run back the level and fight the boss in a better place for you?

Or why the boss must always have much more energy/life/health than you?

The boss idea is to bring secondary characters that actually have a relevance to the story. People that can really bring you into trouble (this is, the classic hitman that is close to the really-evil-guy in the story, that has a dramatic battle with the main character near the end, where you can think the main character is about to die because of him). Not superhuman, not ridiculous, not huge. Just as good as you, with their flaws and advantages, that he will try to make use of to defeat you (exactly the same you try to do).

I'm with the boss idea, but more directed to a story-relevant aspect, not just because a level must have an end boss... ;)
Image
joi
Gnome
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:11 pm
Location: brazil

Post by joi »

My opinion is; dont change the winning team! I've been fighting bosses since i was 5 years old, and i dont see them getting out of my life soon. :twisted:
maya 7.0, vs 2005, ogre 1.2
User avatar
SuprChikn
Bugbear
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:10 am
Location: Melbourne, Aus
Contact:

Post by SuprChikn »

One of the bosses I've liked going up against was the "Dark Link" in a couple of the zelda games.

I like that he's basically you, so he doesn't have some bs rediculous moves that you cant pull off. Pretty much anything he can do, you can do (if you're quick enough). Gives a nice chanlenge.
User avatar
Chris Jones
Lich
Posts: 1742
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:11 pm
Location: Gosport, South England
x 1

Post by Chris Jones »

also, thinking about it, id much prefer bosses to have 10x better AI as the normal NPCs AI, but for the boss to have equal abilities/weapons etc

would make it much more interesting
User avatar
:wumpus:
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 3067
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:53 pm
Location: The Netherlands
x 1

Post by :wumpus: »

Yeah, I don't think I have anything to add here. As long as it fits with the storyline there is nothing wrong with bosses. But, like many others, I don't like the arcade-ish "this is the end of a level so there must be a boss here" stuff.
User avatar
bugshake
Greenskin
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Post by bugshake »

An example of a really good boss is Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. Basicly, the enemies get more difficult and in come in bigger groups as the game progresses. They also come in different combinations. The final fight is when you are in a closed space (no escape), have to protect the lady and fight the most difficult combination of 4 baddies at-a-time. This is the most difficult combination of all fighting challenges in the game. The fight with the big bad wizard that follows is extremely easy, which makes perfect sense to me.

Baldurs Gate II, after chapter 12 you are faced with the final demon, having allready defeated three ultimate warriors (like the ravager). Unfortunately, this demon is about 20 times stronger than the strongest thing you've ever encountered at that point. Also, there's no way to get more XP cause all mayor XP enemies and quests are finished at that point. Basicly, for me it meant after a zillion hours of gameplay I couldn't see the end :( Still, the best game ever.

Beyond good and Evil ends with a boss on-top-of a boss etc, the fight just takes way to long to try more then 4 times so I never finished that one. Besides, fighting the last one is not a matter of skill or intellect, rather it's a 20-digit combination of up/left/right yo have to remember and execute with perfect timing. Every time you reach digit n, you will die, find out digit n+1 and try again.

Same goes for Bards Tale: extremely funny but way to easy a game. And then it ends with the most impossibly impossible fight possibly imaginable. I really wonder why that was.
Crashy
Google Summer of Code Student
Google Summer of Code Student
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lyon, France
x 49
Contact:

Post by Crashy »

Baldurs Gate II, after chapter 12 you are faced with the final demon, having allready defeated three ultimate warriors (like the ravager). Unfortunately, this demon is about 20 times stronger than the strongest thing you've ever encountered at that point. Also, there's no way to get more XP cause all mayor XP enemies and quests are finished at that point. Basicly, for me it meant after a zillion hours of gameplay I couldn't see the end Sad Still, the best game ever.
What?? You never Finished Throne of Baal?


I think bosses are good, but only in a few cases. In a RPG, bosses can be a good challenge, to test your ability to control your team, and adapt your strategy to a new situation.(no, there won't be team control in Antharia)


For the FPS, the only one I know with true Boss(except Duke) is serious sam: When hords of Kamikazes are running while you need to kick the as* of a huge boss, throwing thousands of missiles, wow! I want more :lol: :lol:

A thing to really work with boss, that's the background and/or the charisma of the character. The more the boss charismatic is, the more fun you have.
Follow la Moustache on Twitter or on Facebook
Image
anger
Gnoblar
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:51 pm
Location: Latvia, Riga

Post by anger »

Bosses can come in great variety - they can be really frustrating, or, if designed correctly, real fun! :) I really like how Blizzard handled this in World of Warcraft (raids)! Killing them is not necessary, but doing so can be very rewarding for the player! And forming a raid paty to go against Onyxia is so much fun! :D
Other than that, I hate the concept of 'game levels' and 'bosses'! It ruins the continuous flow of the game. (Yep, I'm a fan of go-wherever-you-want-at-your-own-risk type of games ;))
sgrgc
Greenskin
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 1:42 pm

Post by sgrgc »

kill all the bosses :lol:
User avatar
SuprChikn
Bugbear
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:10 am
Location: Melbourne, Aus
Contact:

Post by SuprChikn »

Crashy wrote:For the FPS, the only one I know with true Boss(except Duke) is serious sam: When hords of Kamikazes are running while you need to kick the as* of a huge boss, throwing thousands of missiles, wow! I want more :lol: :lol:
God damn I hate those kamikazes. I got worried every time I came to a nice open area. Then you hear the screaming, and it's on.
Getting to that final boss was a lot harder than actually beating him. Though the first time I played Sam was on a LAN at a friends place, doing co-operative play. Finally get to the final boss, we're all shooting the crap out of him, then I got an idea of what we really should be doing, using those jump-pads and all. So I start going around in a circle, turning the things on. Had done a couple of full circles, and was wondering why nothing was happening. Then I noticed one of my mates was doing the same thing accross the map from me, circling in the same direction, so after I turn one on, he turns it back off shortly after :lol:

Any1 here ever play Monkey Island 4? Took me a while to stumble on the answer to beating the final boss in that. Got it out of frustration really, deciding to do something different.
Although, in that series of games, trying things that dont really seem to make much sense seems to be a good idea :D (like my decision to try to pick up a dog in the second game, mainly as a joke. Was kinda surprised when he did pick up the dog and shove him down the pants.) Damn good series of games, that.

So, er, yeah. I like bosses :)
User avatar
bugshake
Greenskin
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Post by bugshake »

Crashy wrote:What?? You never Finished Throne of Baal?
No, so if you have any hints on what characters and spells to use on that female devil, I might replay the game some time. It was that good.
Crashy
Google Summer of Code Student
Google Summer of Code Student
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lyon, France
x 49
Contact:

Post by Crashy »

I finnished it a few years ago(..mmhh..4 years..erf..I was only 14 years, young and idiot(ok, I'm still young, and still idiot, but less :lol: )), and I don't remember how I did it. Maybe I'll replay this game to see :)


@SuprChikn:
-1) yes, Serious Sam in coop mode, that is great!

-2) Played to Monkey 4(and also 2,3), and I wasn't a big fan of the idea fo the boss in a point&click game, even if Monkey 4 is not really a point& click :?

I'd prefer an end like in Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis, were you must choose the good sentences to influence the bad guy, and force him to try the machine that was supposed to change you in god..but that changes you in demon.
Last edited by Crashy on Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Follow la Moustache on Twitter or on Facebook
Image
User avatar
SpannerMan
Gold Sponsor
Gold Sponsor
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by SpannerMan »

Crashy wrote:Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis...
Aaaah that was a good one. Probably the best old school Lucas Arts adventure game in my opinion. But my two favourite adventure games of all time are Day Of The Tentacle (pure classic, unrivalled crazy puzzles) and Grim Fandango (classy, unique, clever).

I was greatly saddened to hear of the plug been pulled on the new Sam and Max adventure game - this was pretty much the death toll ringing for the adventure game genre. I love shooters and racers and flyers and strategies and the lot, but I do miss a good adventure. Lets hope Ankh can save the day :)

Sorry for going all reminisant there... about the level bosses, I think certain game types NEED them (what would Sonic and Mario do without a boss here and there), but I felt that their presence in HL broke the mood. Really depends on the circumstance and game play your aiming for.
Crashy
Google Summer of Code Student
Google Summer of Code Student
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lyon, France
x 49
Contact:

Post by Crashy »

for me, Indy 4 is the best adventure game ever, The Dig is just afer :)
Follow la Moustache on Twitter or on Facebook
Image
sgrgc
Greenskin
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 1:42 pm

Post by sgrgc »

my list
  1. doom 2
  2. another world
  3. serious sam
  4. max payne
  5. prince 2
  6. kumoon
  7. quake 3
  8. ut 2004
  9. quadnet
  10. diablo
  11. black thorne
  12. doom 3
Crashy
Google Summer of Code Student
Google Summer of Code Student
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lyon, France
x 49
Contact:

Post by Crashy »

FPs fan? :lol:

I think mine is this(notice that we are totally off topic :roll: )

-Archimedean Dynasty( :cry: Massive is dead :cry: :cry: )
-Duke Nukem 3D(yeaah, time to kick ass an chew bubble gum. I was playing it when I was 8 years old :lol: )
-Operation Flashpoint!
-Total Annihilation(yeaah, Supreme Commander is coming, also with Jeremy Soule, yeaah)
-Baldur's Gate 1 (for the game itself), Icewind Dale(for the music, Jeremy Soule powered 8) )
-Sacrifice(what a shame Shiny make another Matrix Game, I want a Sacrifice sequel!)
-Sudden Strike
-Falcon 4.0
-Aquanox 2( :cry: Massive is dead :cry: :cry: again)
-Indy and the fate of Atlantis
-Baldur's Gate 2
-JK2.
Follow la Moustache on Twitter or on Facebook
Image
User avatar
bugshake
Greenskin
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Post by bugshake »

Hmmm, these are the games I enjoyed most at the time I played them, in no particular order:

populous
xenon II
fist II
baldurs gate
baldurs gate II
dungeon siege
diablo II
dune II
tetris
prince of persia: sands of time
User avatar
ahmedali
Gnome
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:52 pm
Location: Lahore, Pakistan

Post by ahmedali »

Most of the issues with bosses show that designers' skills fade out after certain situations. I'm not a game designer but as a player I have found these points.

-Maybe it's the pressure & desperate attempt to increase Weight of ending, otherwise ending will be not worthy.
-When they have no more creative ideas or they can't visualize new ways to make bosses a big deal for the player, without breaking the laws of simulation or gameplay of that particular game.
-When in case of Arcade games they want to suck as much money from the player as they can for continues.
-The lack of technology or design of engine can't add new gameplay elements only for boss.

These unbalanced bosses simply make me frustrated. THE FACT IS a boss level is just a level out of many other levels and the bad boss can simple destroy all the good feelings I had from previous levels. Mostly I enjoy non-bosses levels than the bosses' one. But for the anxious motive to complete the game makes me beat badly designed bosses even if I have to use cheats.

I have a same experience with many games like Half-Life, in start everything looks great but after sometime designer starts showing how desperate he was becoming in doing it. I have experienced this more in sequels of game like POP:WWithin.

But on the other hand I really enjoyed games like POP, SplinterCell(specially lates one), GTAX.

This overall situation can also be observed in some movies, especially sequels, where writers do stupid things to make ending great or showing how great the boss is.
sgrgc
Greenskin
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 1:42 pm

Post by sgrgc »

i think the main reason is lack of ai
that causes boses to be stupid but powerful
User avatar
Kojack
OGRE Moderator
OGRE Moderator
Posts: 7157
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:35 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
x 534

Post by Kojack »

The things about bosses I hate:
- Uses techniques which aren't taught during the previous parts of the game. A boss fight should bring together everything you've learnt so far.
- Can only be defeated by a specific weapon or vulnerable spot, but there's no indication that you are using the right weapon or spot (I hate spending ages on a boss, then lookin on the net and finding out that only the SomeWeapon shot at his left elbow while he's facing northeast can kill him).
- Bosses which don't fit in with the rest of the game due to abilities, defense, etc. Like the guy (name withheld to avoid spoiling story) at the end of the main story arc in Vice City who takes hundreds of rounds of ammo to kill, but anyone else can be taken down with a single head shot.


Archimedean Dynasty rocked. :)
Crashy
Google Summer of Code Student
Google Summer of Code Student
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lyon, France
x 49
Contact:

Post by Crashy »

Archimedean Dynasty
Of course it rocks 8)
I was the only official "Schleichfahrt" french veteran 8) 8)
Follow la Moustache on Twitter or on Facebook
Image
Post Reply