DirectX 10 for Windows XP

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DirectX 10 for Windows XP

Post by DaCracker » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:36 am

Yay!

It seems like there are some guys who are working
on porting DirectX 10 to Windows XP (and probably older
versions of Windows as well). There's already a preview
avaliable.
I find this project really exciting since I'm a happy user
of Windows XP and the only reason to why I should even
think of upgrading is for playing the new fancy games. And
now I probably won't have to :)

Link:
http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/2007/04 ... log-i.html
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Post by Ajare » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:08 am

Look forward to this getting stomped on pretty quickly by MS.
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Post by Aladrin » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:10 am

I have paid the $50 and I'm in their 'sapling' program. Unfortunately, I signed up when I thought they were focusing on Linux. Now, I don't know if they are going to do the Linux thing at all.

I've tried the Prey demo thing they provide to saplings and the sound doesn't work and it crashes after the menu. I've talked to them about it, but they 'can't reproduce the bug' and that's about it. You'd think they'd be a little more concerned about making sure the first saplings were happy with the demo. There are only 15 registered users on the forum there, about a third of which are part of the company, and I know of only 1 other registered sapling.

They aren't off to a great start.

Their plan to make a converter to make DX10 games run on DX9 is probably a LOT easier than making DX-anything run on Linux natively. (They aren't using Wine.)

They have not answered my query as to whether they plan to make DX10 work on Linux or not.
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Post by Kojack » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:17 pm

by compiling Geometry Shaders down to native machine code for execution where hardware isn't capable of running it. No longer will you have to upgrade your OS and video card(s) to play the latest games.
Umm, software emulating a geometry shader fast enough to play the "latest games"? Yeah...
Sounds like when I tried to play floating point games (like quake) using a software floating point emulator on my 486sx, and could nearly get 0.1 fps if really really lucky.

Getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 10 card is at least believable. But getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 9 card fast enough for latest games is a bit unrealistic.
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Post by Professor420 » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:20 pm

Kojack wrote:Getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 10 card is at least believable. But getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 9 card fast enough for latest games is a bit unrealistic.
Sorry but I have to totally disagree.

Its not a bit realistic. Its totally f***ing ridiculous.
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Post by DaCracker » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:24 pm

Well, I see that most of you think that this may not work and..
yeah... maybe it's true, but I think it's worth a try anyway. They
seem to be pretty sure that their project will succed since they
say that they'll make games and stuff with it. Anyway, I'll be
cool to see the result of this, at least according to me, intressting
project :)
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Post by PolyVox » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:29 pm

Wouldn't it make more sense to map DirectX calls to OpenGL? I'm guessing this is what Transgaming/Cedega does, and presumably they will have a DirectX 10 version at some point.

Maybe a windows port of Transgaming is what is needed :D Oh, the irony...
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Post by Praetor » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:41 pm

This is all so outrageous. I don't see them getting anywhere, because as soon as they have a "success" microsoft will shut them down. But, maybe it will at least let MS know people are willing to do almost anything not to upgrade. I mean, I have the features sitting on my card, don't blab to me about driver models, just let me get access to those hardware features!
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Post by barkas » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:45 pm

Professor420 wrote:
Kojack wrote:Getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 10 card is at least believable. But getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 9 card fast enough for latest games is a bit unrealistic.
Sorry but I have to totally disagree.

Its not a bit realistic. Its totally fucking ridiculous.
Not entirely so, with multicore CPUs the geometry shader (which, handling geometry, will probably not have that much troughput to deal with) can run on an unused core.

But I think it will have compatibility problems (see wine).
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Post by sinbad » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:29 pm

If you want Dx10 features on XP, just wait for the features to trickle down via GL, it's already starting (although only nVidia seems to be bothering with this, which isn't surprising I suppose since ATI have never been particularly interested in GL). Don't hold your breath for the major games to support it for a little while though.
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Post by jacmoe » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:09 pm

Professor420 wrote:
Kojack wrote:Getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 10 card is at least believable. But getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 9 card fast enough for latest games is a bit unrealistic.
Sorry but I have to totally disagree.

Its not a bit realistic. Its totally fucking ridiculous.
Is it? :)

I don't think so.
If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?

That you can call f"#¤&g ridiculous, if you absolutely must. :wink:
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Post by DaCracker » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:20 pm

sinbad wrote:
If you want Dx10 features on XP, just wait for the features to trickle down via GL, it's already starting (although only nVidia seems to be bothering with this, which isn't surprising I suppose since ATI have never been particularly interested in GL). Don't hold your breath for the major games to support it for a little while though.
Yeah, I know that the new stuff will be avaliable in OpenGL, however...
I have a ATI card so it may take a while before I can get my hands on
it :(

jacmoe wrote:
Professor420 wrote:
Kojack wrote:Getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 10 card is at least believable. But getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 9 card fast enough for latest games is a bit unrealistic.
Sorry but I have to totally disagree.

Its not a bit realistic. Its totally fucking ridiculous.
Is it? :)

I don't think so.
If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?

That you can call f"#¤&g ridiculous, if you absolutely must. :wink:
Well said! :)
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Post by xavier » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:27 pm

jacmoe wrote: If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?
???
Full support for both Microsoft® DirectX 10 and DirectX 9 for unparalleled levels of graphics realism and performance
http://www.nvidia.com/page/geforce8.html

I am guessing that under the covers, the drivers implement the little bit of shader functionality needed to fill in the gaps left by the missing fixed-function pipeline in DX9 on these cards.

I mean, think about what you said for a second: would nVidia really pull an Intel here (speaking of the Itanium desktop debacle, where they nearly got owned by AMD who had x86-64 chips where the Itanium was IA64 only) and produce a graphics card that at its release, only a very tiny tiny fraction of its target market could use? ;)
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Post by jacmoe » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm

xavier wrote:
jacmoe wrote: If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?
???
Gimme a break, xavier! :)

I thought that DirectX 10 was only available on Vista?
I know you can use DX9 with a DX10 card, but that's not what I'd buy such a card for. :wink:

Besides, you can get a very beefy DX9 card for a lot less money nowadays.

I am just against being forced to buy an OS upgrade to be able to use the latest DX10 features, that's all.

Allow me to link to my favorite Vista review:
Why Vista Won't Suck :)
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Post by jacmoe » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:12 pm

xavier wrote:I am guessing that under the covers, ...
I agree with you here.
Let's see how much X there is in DX10. :wink:
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Post by Kojack » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:50 pm

If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?
Damn you microsoft, release DirectX 9.0C for MSDOS 6 so I can play real mode dos games with hardware 3d!

:)
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Post by Kencho » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:06 pm

jacmoe wrote:If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?
Rather the opposite: If you upgrade to Vista, you're forced to buy a DX10 card :lol:
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Post by jacmoe » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:12 pm

Kencho wrote:
jacmoe wrote:If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?
Rather the opposite: If you upgrade to Vista, you're forced to buy a DX10 card :lol:
AFAIK, Vista uses DirectX9 to render the desktop. :roll:
My machine has a Windows Experience Index (sic) of 4.4 - using an ATI Radeon X1650 - not bad. :wink:
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Post by Mikachu » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:48 pm

jacmoe wrote: Allow me to link to my favorite Vista review:
Why Vista Won't Suck :)
Well, that's for theory.
In practice, having tested Vista with my 4.1 experience PC, it has a very nice UI, but is slower than XP for running games, and has even worse drivers than linux (video and audio).
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Post by Kencho » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 pm

jacmoe wrote:
Kencho wrote:
jacmoe wrote:If you buy a DX10 card now, you are forced to upgrade to Vista, aren't you?
Rather the opposite: If you upgrade to Vista, you're forced to buy a DX10 card :lol:
AFAIK, Vista uses DirectX9 to render the desktop. :roll:
It was a joke :P
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Post by Professor420 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:27 am

barkas wrote:
Professor420 wrote:
Kojack wrote:Getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 10 card is at least believable. But getting directx 10 working in xp on a directx 9 card fast enough for latest games is a bit unrealistic.
Sorry but I have to totally disagree.

Its not a bit realistic. Its totally fucking ridiculous.
Not entirely so, with multicore CPUs the geometry shader (which, handling geometry, will probably not have that much troughput to deal with) can run on an unused core.

But I think it will have compatibility problems (see wine).
Forget about just the geometry shader. A (comparitively simple) shader like Parallax Occlusion slows a moderate computer down to 30-40 FPS in a solitary scene, with nothing else going on. You will simply not be able to run DX10 games on DX9 hardware, taking into account nothing other than graphics. Until, perhaps, we get to the point where CPU power is enough that today's GPU's can be emulated easily, in, say, a decade or so.

The fastest DX9 card is simply not fast enough to keep up with DX10 graphics and shaders... I would assume.
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Post by irrdev » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:27 am

I think that these guys should stop trying to make a new implementation of DX10, but rather just route the calls to DX9 functions. If a feature isn't supported by DX9, then it should simply be "null." Of course, this wouldn't work for all games, but it would be fine for the majority. GL of course would work almost as well. :wink:
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Post by Kojack » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:56 am

If a feature isn't supported by DX9, then it should simply be "null." Of course, this wouldn't work for all games, but it would be fine for the majority.
Umm, how many DX10 games won't use a single feature of DX10? If people don't want DX10 features in their game they would use DX9 so it will work on both XP and Vista. Most of the new features aren't exactly things you can just null out without the game being affected.
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Post by Kencho » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:00 am

Kojack wrote:
If a feature isn't supported by DX9, then it should simply be "null." Of course, this wouldn't work for all games, but it would be fine for the majority.
Umm, how many DX10 games won't use a single feature of DX10? If people don't want DX10 features in their game they would use DX9 so it will work on both XP and Vista. Most of the new features aren't exactly things you can just null out without the game being affected.
I wonder how many studios Microsoft will pay so that they release their games under Dx10 only, even if they don't use any particular features. We've seen this in the past with Windows systems, so that wouldn't be anything new.
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Post by sinbad » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:04 pm

Remember also that all the 'next gen' consoles are Dx9-class. Dx10 is great and all for the future, but my goodness there's a shedload that can be done with Dx9 yet.
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