A letter to Steve

Anything and everything that's related to OGRE or the wider graphics field that doesn't fit into the other forums.
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SunSailor
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Post by SunSailor »

Sorry, steve, maybe its simply a different argumentation style. I really don't share the opinion, that you shouldn't give the group you argument about a name. In my opinion, a discussion can only suffer, if you have to package every argument in political correctness. Why do we always have to say "I know it is not every chinese, most of them are nice people bla bla", if we already know that and the discussion is about the copyright infringements? Which are covered by the regime of china and especially in the heavy industrie, they are even proud to copy our products? Just as I said, I don't share this political correctnes madness, as it prevents a lot of necessary discussion at all. But thats only my opinion. But ok, this is the internet, you don't know me personally, so it maybe unclear how the thing was ment. But sorry, I doubt, you will find someone here in our circle, who doesn't cover this personal respect for people and life - so I don't see the necessary to always confess these basics.
And the discussion between Wolfmanfx and me is simply the usual clash you get, when a left winger and a liberal democrat are talking about economic and social things - one keeps the discussion in an economical dimension and the other calls him an nazi. As I believe that is the most dumbest argumentation killer, my anger arised, leading into this german language discussion. Sorry for that.
Maybe this thread should be closed - or even better be deleted, as the origin of the anger has been removed. Even if a small apology towards the author would have been nice... (Done. Peace, man :) ) But maybe thats where I'm a bit to pendantic ;-). Really, didn't want to attack anyone personally, that's simply my harsh way to argument.
Last edited by SunSailor on Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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apologize from www.ogre3d.cn

Post by xdonlee »

Firstly, I and the www.ogre3d.cn , want to express our deep pest regret for the pirate links. We apologize for our ignorance. And, we have already delete all the links relative with the book "Apress Pro OGRE 3D Programming" in our website and the BBS. We promise that this kind of issue will never happen again.

Secondly, there are so many people who are interested in Ogre, and they are so eager to learn the knowledge about Ogre. But, to get a foreign book is very difficulty and luxurious to us, so we were over-happy when we get the pirate links and overlook that we were illegal.

Finally, we felt lucky to be noticed in time that we won't do anything illegal any more Again, I want to apologize for what we have done, for our ignorance, to Apress, also the writer and the community.
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Post by sinbad »

@SunSailor: It's not political correctness at all, it's about not using generalisations. The point is that you did not say 'most', you implied 'all', which is grossly unfair to people who aren't like that; including someone I personally know. Which might have made me more sensitive to the comment of course. All generalisations are invalid, without exception. Except that one ;)

It would be like me saying all people of a certain nationality (which I won't name in case they feel I'm actually saying it!) are pushy, ignorant, queue-jumping and rude because that's been my frequent personal experience with some of them whilst on holiday. But I wouldn't say that, because even though that's been my experience it's a generalisation and inherently wrong and offensive, because I know for a fact that plenty aren't like that at all - it's just those are the ones you remember.

There's nothing wrong with discussing the issues, there is something wrong with saying the issues are universal to all - that's the line between debate and bigotry. It's a small point, but to me it's important.

xdonlee: thanks for removing the link, I'm glad you've sorted this out. There is a link to your site on the Wiki under the "Unofficial Localised Sites" section.
Last edited by sinbad on Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Praetor »

Nice, xdonlee. The infringement isn't good, but it seems there's some real enthusiasm over Ogre. Perhaps now is a good time to actually contact Apress about a translation.

@sunsailor I share your loathing for blunted language. If I want to be crass for the sake of argument, I'll be crass. I'm not sure where people started to get the idea that there is a "right not to be offended" and that it is on the same level (or higher?!) as the right to offend.
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Post by sinbad »

Praetor wrote:@sunsailor I share your loathing for blunted language. If I want to be crass for the sake of argument, I'll be crass. I'm not sure where people started to get the idea that there is a "right not to be offended" and that it is on the same level (or higher?!) as the right to offend.
Sure, but this is a moderated board. Giving offense never leads to anything useful except emotional reaction which is not condusive to balanced debate.
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Post by haffax »

sinbad wrote:It would be like me saying all people of a certain nationality (which I won't name in case they feel I'm actually saying it!) are ... queue-jumping ...
All other named attributes are ambivalent, but I guess we're hard to beat in that regard. ;) So annoying...
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Post by nikki »

xavier wrote:The only person who has ever asked me about translating the book lives in India IIRC.
India? Awesome. He's going to translate it to Hindi?
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Post by kneeride »

Ease up Sunsailor. Your comments were racist.
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Post by joew »

I find the comments by SunSailor extremely racist. It is the exact equivelant of saying all Germans are Nazis, which obviously isn't true whatsoever.
Last edited by joew on Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SunSailor »

kneeride wrote:Ease up Sunsailor. Your comments were racist.
Strange definition some people of "racism" have. Sorry, I totally disagree. This isn't about racism, but about a real existing, menacing problem. If you define this as racism already, you're definitly have a little to thin skin in my opinion. Why do all people have permanently to shout "racism", "hitler" and something like that? Don't you have arguments about the topic? Is political correctness everything you care about? Sorry again, I have different emphases. I don't care about "races" or something like that at all.
My comments may have been polarizing and a bit unfair, but not racisting, come on! They would have been racisting, if I would have said the chinese are worthless or something similar, but I only stated, that there is a huge problem with intellctual property - its just about reminding about the rules of the game. But some people seem to tend to find racism everywhere. Enough for me, I should have left the discussion earlier, when someone came with this dumb "hitler" response on, latest that is the point where a witch hunt breaks loose. Fine, if you want to relive that part of history - but without me.
Last edited by SunSailor on Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by kneeride »

SunSailor wrote:Don't you have arguments about the topic?
No, because your generalisation is absurd.
Last edited by kneeride on Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by SunSailor »

kneeride wrote:
SunSailor wrote:Don't you have arguments about the topic?
No, because your generalisation is absurd.
Proofs, you havn't understood anything I tried to say. But great, you found someone to point your finger at. Have fun with that.
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Post by kneeride »

I'm not pointing my finger. I just don't appreciate some of the comments you've made. It's not important. I'm out..
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Post by Kojack »

This is going down hill fast, and has zero chance of a peaceful resolution.
Discussion of the topic (chinese localised ogre site) only, take the rest to PM.
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Post by BRAINLESS »

Nice to see a chinese site for Ogre (even though I don't understand a word - or indeed a single character - of the site :D). I hope you can work out a deal with Apress to translate the book legally, too :)
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Post by jomunoz »

It's cool to see how people over the world can form a community around a good piece of software. I couldn't imagine that 15 year ago.
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Post by Game_Ender »

SunSailor you were not the only one thinking along those lines, but hey I am an American conservative, I am supposed to think that ;).
jomunoz wrote:It's cool to see how people over the world can form a community around a good piece of software. I couldn't imagine that 15 year ago.
At least somebody managed to find the bright point here. It is quite cool to see a dedicated Russian and Ogre site. Another way to look at it now Ogre is so popular are pirating one of the few (only?) parts of this open source project that you can pirate.
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Post by Chaster »

I wasn't going to comment, but man, I just can't leave it.

*edit* deleted. Boy, Sunsailor really makes me want to open source the Portal Scene Manager now! Woohoo! Gee, since I guess I can't respect any copyright laws...

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Post by odyeiop »

I'm pretty sure that most people tend to generalize groups in one way or another. Some people are just more vocal about it I guess.
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Post by Alexander »

NdotL wrote:I find the comments by SunSailor extremely racist. It is the exact equivelant of saying all Germans are Nazis, which obviously isn't true whatsoever.
I don't remember SunSailor saying that all Chinese people are pirates, but I did get the impression that he was commenting about a serious problem in the country which is completely correct.

I think that English is SunSailor's second language and perhaps we should try to glean his actual message instead of jumping to conclusions to defend justice.
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Post by jacmoe »

Exactly.
I understand SunSailor, he was out of line, but we all tend to generalise from time to time.
There's just too many things to relate to if we didn't.

Sometimes these generalisations can become dangerous, and turn into racism and worse.

But most of the time it doesn't hurt anyone. :wink:

Sunsailor can be accused of gross generalisation, but not racism (or worse).
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Post by KungFooMasta »

It's definately a big problem that exists in that area. SunSailor just shed some light on it. I don't see anything wrong with his message, he shouldn't have to formally state his intentions and make everything crystal clear to protect against people who might interpret what he says in a negative way. Most of us know what he is trying to say, and it is about copyright issues..

Not to add any drama..
I'm pretty sure that most people tend to generalize groups in one way or another.
How often do you find an asian household without a rice cooker? :lol:

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Post by Wretched_Wyx »

It's of my honest opinion, having traveled quite a lot in my life, that people are people wherever you go. I agree with Sinbad's point that lumping everyone in the same pile... Just isn't intelligent.

If you want to get angry because China makes billions of dollars via copyright infringment, then you'd have to get angry because America makes billions of dollars via the illegal drug market. You know... I was going to list a whole bunch of countries here, and how they make billions of dollars, but I don't feel like stirring that pot- and it'd be beside the point.

The point is, pointing a finger and saying "Look at what they did! That's bad! Everyone look!", is begging for the finger to be pointed back at you. People are people. Not to say we all emplore copyright infringment in this particular case, but rather that you are no better SunSailor. You think because whatever country you belong to isn't in the limelight for some taboo economical no-no, that it doesn't partake in the same activities? That's brash and ignorant.

It's good to see that the loose ends were fixed there, and I applaude a new channel for the Chinese to be able to dive into Ogre more. I'm certain it will help Ogre out as well- China is a big country after all, with lot's of talented developers :).
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Post by jacmoe »

This just shows how dangerous it is to not choose your wording wisely when using a Forum - this form of communication is only based on the written word. :wink:

Kudos to xdonlee for dealing with the situation in a swift and timely way.
May the Chinese Ogre community thrive! :)
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Post by kneeride »

Damn, what is wrong with you chinese people, that you have these problems to understand even the basic concepts of copyright?
I don't know how some of you guys can say that that comment was not prejudice.

This comment is also prejudice:
KungFooMasta wrote: How often do you find an asian household without a rice cooker? :lol:
KungFooMasta
I refer to the following definition:
any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
Both comments are preconceived opinions based on race.
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