What have you tried? or how to avoid being a help vampire

[jacmoe]

The following is an excerpt from Matt Legend Gemmell's blog:

whathaveyoutried.com

If you’re a developer and you’re about to ask another developer a technical question (on a forum, via email, on a chat channel, or in person), you’d better be ready to answer the question “What have you tried?”

So, if you’re going to ask a technical question, I guess the first thing I have to say to you is: Great! You’re asking a question, and that means we have a better than even chance that you want to learn something. That’s usually awesome, and I stand ready to salute you.

But wait. Have you considered - really considered - what it is you’re about to ask? Is this the right time to ask, or can you take one more step first, which might either make your question clearer (good) or even unnecessary (probably better)?

Try taking a few minutes to run through these points:

1. Have you broken the question or problem down sufficiently to really ask something concrete? In software engineering, you can pretty much divide problems into the two categories of (1) things that can be broken down further, and (2) things you already know how to do or can look up trivially.
2. Is your problem the sort of standard question for which there’s definitely already some sample code and documentation available? There isn’t a GUI toolkit in the world that doesn’t have a section in the tutorial on how to put a window on screen. There’s no programming language that doesn’t tell you how to read the contents of a file. Skim the documentation, or do a quick search. If your problem is that simple, the answer is probably just moments away. You can find it!
3. Try searching the web. This is glib advice, I know, but stay with me. If you’re having trouble getting a decent result, you need to narrow things down. Don’t search for “if statement” if you’re just interested in an if-statement in ruby; instead, try “ruby if statement”. What might be even better is finding a site that’s specific to the language or technology you’re working with, and searching there. For Cocoa, this is the CocoaBuilder list archives. Someone else has probably asked your question - or maybe a hundred someones.
4. Whoever made your language or framework or API or whatever also created a bunch of sample code; really, they did. It’s designed to help you get on your feet with various common tasks, and there might be some code that does at least some of what you want to do. It’ll take you only a few minutes to check, and at the very least you can grab a load of code which will come in handy at some point in the future.
5. Use your IDE’s online reference or other built-in documentation. Xcode has a documentation browser. Eclipse etc will show you the Java class documentation. PHP.net has you covered for your PHP scripts. Find the canonical reference for what you’re working with, and search it. You’re going to find something that’s helpful almost every time.

OK, you’ve gone through those steps and tried at least a few of them. I can now finally say congratulations. Either you’ve solved your own problem (great), or you are now officially ready to be helped.

When I ask you “what have you tried?”, you can say with confidence that you’ve tried all that stuff above, and you can tell me anything promising you found, or you can say that you’ve at least come up empty honestly. I’m going to help you at this point, because I can see that you want to learn and that you’re willing to work for it, and so I want to teach you.

That’s the key realisation. When you’re asked “what have you tried?”, it doesn’t mean “show me the code you’ve written, or piss off”. What you have to do is at least try to help yourself - and the trying is the important thing.

Not just for avoiding pissing off someone who would otherwise be willing to give freely of their valuable time to help you, but actually for your own development. Do it enough times and the number of questions you’ll actually have to ask will start to go down. You’ll also be in the position to help others (including me), and that way everybody wins.

So next time you’re considering asking a question, you’d better be ready with a convincing answer when you’re asked “What have you tried?”

If your answer amounts to “not a lot”, take my word for it: the next question you get back will be “then why should I help you?”

Pretty useful advice, IMO.
And a good weapon against Help Vampires.

[spacegaier]

Bookmarked for further use. Will definelty be used by me as standard reply to questions not fitting the criterias .

[RedEyeCoder]

Great solid information.

In regards to "the canonical reference", Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky are trying to tackle that problem with their stackoverflow website.

[Kencho]

I suggest adding a "What have you done?" button in the post editor to easily add a link to this thread stating that question

Also vote for sticking this thread.

[jacmoe]

I think I better ask Matt if he minds me stealing and butchering his original blog post.
Make sure you read his, if you like the excerpt.

<edit>
This guide is truly useful:
Help Vampires: A Spotter's Guide
It not only shows you how to spot a help vampire, it also provides a cure.
</edit>

[xavier]

In Amy's blog post, she is missing one very important item in her list of "what have you tried / what do you know":

POST THE WHOLE DAMN LOG FILE!!!

Nothing chaps my ass more than someone who comes in saying "I am a n00b and I don't know what I am doing", and then presuming to know what parts of the log file are important to me in order to help them.

No one is billing Intenet access by the bit, and disk space is so cheap as to be insignificant.

POST THE WHOLE LOG FILE.

[xavier]

Also, she suggests:

Create resources for Help Vampires (and regular folks) to help themselves.

We've tried. You can only lead the horse to water, however...

Someone who is bound and determined not to put forth the effort, will not -- if you give them a link that does not provide the exact code they want at that instant, they will ignore it and come back for more blood.

And more...

Enforce autonomy. No matter how beneficent you're feeling, never directly answer a common question. This is the lazy way out, and you only enable the Help Vampires instead of truly helping them. Let the URL to your help resources be your only answer...

Then I get shit from the regulars for being "short"

Be friendly. People and Help Vampires are much more likely to become useful members of the community if they're met with kindness and encouragement rather than condescension and spite.

I find myself ignoring more and more posts this way, however...more and more I have to bite back my first acid reaction, in the spirit of "if you don't have anything nice to say...", and then I just move on and don't come back.

BTW, did anyone else notice the recent (couple of days ago) wave of Help Vampires? Ogre must have been mentioned in some script-kiddie publication somewhere, because they sure came out of the woodwork...I know Jacmoe did because he was the one who answered most of the questions...

[jacmoe]

POST THE WHOLE LOG FILE.

Agreed.
Put the log in code tags, and it will be inside a small scrollbox.

Also, she suggests:

Yeah, but she also says: Never give a direct answer to a HV, never serve it on a silver platter.
Give him a chance to help himself first. Give a link to the FAQ, the API or an exsisting topic.

I've noticed the wave.
We should arm ourselves.

[steven]

IMO a big red message should be displayed during the registration phase something like:

"Please, before anything else, read the help [link] & tutorials [link]. If you have a problem first search the forum, then see the Forum Rules [link] then post the whole log file [ogre.log] with your message. Click on the 'K' button to continue".

And you have several buttons hence you must read the text to continue registering.

[xavier]

Not sure about the "always post your whole Ogre.log" thing -- many questions don't need that.

Agreed that a nice overlay dialog during the reg process would be good...or, make it part of the activation email or activation landing page -- they have to do something on the landing page to finish registering, for example. I've joined forums that do this -- provide a set of links in the activation landing page along the lines of "you might want to try these first" type-things. Of course, if we had a nice indexed KB (NOT THE WIKI) it would be much simpler...

[mkultra333]

Just keep in mind that OGRE is bewilderingly opaque for the beginner. And that opaqueness includes the wiki, the demos and 90% of the stuff in the forum. I've still barely reached the rank novice stage after a couple of months. So please don't be hatin' the n00bs too much.

[jacmoe]

It hasn't anything to do with n00bs. I don't mind n00bs.
There is a (big) difference between an honest n00b and a Help Vampire.

[stealth977]

The Human Mind is a neural network with the goal of maximizing the owner's benefits. So given the chance everyone will first try to be a Help Vampire since its the most beneficial attitude at first. What I understand from the article is that the "wise ones" should try to convert this "Help Vampire Attitude" into something wiser, that is the job of the "wise ones" should be to to teach "How to Learn" first.

Unfortunately teaching "How to learn" or converting a "Help Vampire" to a student is not the most beneficial action for "wise ones" at first, since it is the time consuming way, "wise ones" usually tend to ignore those cases, but again if you want to avoid "Help Vampires" you need to convert them, so that they can be the "wise one" in the future, in order to convert them, you need to teach them the correct ways of learning, and to be able to teach them the "wise ones" should learn how to teach in terms of knowledge and in terms of human psychology. In fact thats how a "wise one" can actually be a "wise person", isnt it?

ismail,

NOTE: Each human being has a brain, which is like a different type of CPU for each person, but again it uses exactly the same function no matter the CPU. It is the parameters passed to those functions that affect the result. A person may behave as a "Help Vampire" just because the previous parameters passed to its functions were wrong, so a "wise one" always has the chance to pass "right parameters" to correct its course.

[kraj0t]

hello

I wants to do an MMORPG with some friends from class. I have read the points of the first entry, and I still don't know what to begin with.

Can you please tell me how I do an MMORPG? But a good one, plz.

Thx



PD: stealth977, I like your style

[kraj0t]

Just joking

^__^

[mkultra333]

Ha!

[stealth977]

hello

I wants to do an MMORPG with some friends from class. I have read the points of the first entry, and I still don't know what to begin with.

Can you please tell me how I do an MMORPG? But a good one, plz.

Thx



PD: stealth977, I like your style

Actually you have a point there, a good wiki article on "Building Your Own MMORPG" topic could be added to wiki, with for example the steps:

1 - Check if you or your team have the skills of:
a) Very good understanding of at least one Object Oriented Programming Language (preferably C++)
b) Very good understanding of Game Design Concepts
c) Over average knowledge of using industry standard 3D Design Tools (3DSMax, Maya,... etc.)

2 - Do you have a large team of programmers/artists meeting the criteria above?

3 - Do you have the financial support to continue on such a time and resources consuming project?

4 - If your answers are "Yes" for all the questions above, below are the references to get you started:
- Object Oriented Programming for Dummies
- <Links to Various 3D Design Tool Manuals>
- <Links to Various MMORPG Design Books and Articles> For example: Massively Multiplayer Online Game Design I and II

5 - If you meet the criteria defined in option 4, read the articles mentioned, started implementing your MMORPG and still have a question regarding to one of a zillion aspects of MMORPG Design Implementations which you already tried to find a solution for, looking from multiple aspects, you can ask about it in OGRE forums stating the problem clearly with the objective you want to achieve and what you have tried for it so far...



ismail,

[xavier]

My stock response to MMORPG questions is a single unqualified link to Multiverse's website. I long ago stopped trying to explain the futility of embarking on an MMO project by a single person; it's a waste of my time, and the simple fact that someone is asking the question indicates a total lack of the background knowledge needed for understanding my explanation.

[xadhoom]

(MMORPG Checklist)

From the logical point of view: There will be never anyone who answers all questions with "Yes" AFTER asking "How do I make an MMORPG?"

[jacmoe]

Catch22, eh?

[spacegaier]

Ha, nice one! Xavier has already inserted it into his signature .

[Moo_Juice]

I am going to get flamed for this, but here we go...

I totally agree that posting on a forum without even giving it a go is a complete waste of time on both the part of the questioner and the guys that know their stuff.

I try and search forums before I post a question.


The problem is, is that concepts are grasped very differently between one guy and the next. We all learn things in different ways. You could explain creating a scene node in multiple ways. Some people will "get it" on one method, an some others on another. Our brains are completely different from one another, regardless of whether we're stupid/capable/smart.

(Perhaps this is a bad example... I may say the same thing about "picking" or "rendering terrain")

"Read the forums"
"Read the FAQ"

These things only go so far. When I first bought Visual C++ back in Windows 3.1 era, it came in a massive box. There may have been a CD in there somewhere with the actual software on it. The rest was the manuals and printed books of what we call the MSDN today (it was heavy!).

Ogre3D has the wiki + these forums. I've tried as much as I can not to ask stupid questions. My biggest issue (on the squirrel linking issue) remains unsolved. N00b question? No. I've been linking libraries left, right and centre for over 10 years. This one has stumped me and I have yet to get an answer for it (no, I am not complaining).



In short, back in the day when languages and APIs were released, they came out with proper manuals (rather than just a class reference and a few tutorials). I UNDERSTAND Ogre is a free project and is provided as-is (and it is, indeed wonderful!!!! ), but when newcomers come across it, without the old faithful "product-bible" in their hands, they ask questions. Some that have been asked before. You can ask the say the same statement many different ways:

"I didn't say SHE took the cookies"
"I DIDN'T say she took the cookies"
"I didn't SAY she took the cookies"
"I didn't say she TOOK the cookies"
"I didn't say she took the COOKIES".

What did I say?


For what is simple for you is complex for me. What is simple for me, may be complex for you.

[jacmoe]

Nothing wrong with that.
If you put an effort into asking, we put an effort into answering.
It's as simple as that.

If you don't know how to ask - we'll teach you.

[stealth977]

Nothing wrong with that.
If you put an effort into asking, we put an effort into answering.
It's as simple as that.

If you don't know how to ask - we'll teach you.

Well thats actually whats expected from a "wise one", to teach people how to ask, if they dont know how to ask (not joking btw)

ismail,

[jacmoe]

I have the perfect solution to everyone’s problems. And we’ll save the earth to boot!

Shutdown this entire discussion board, replace it with a one-page FAQ.

Now, this topic is a good example of how to provide a near perfect answer to a hopeless question:
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50455
Trnrez acted exemplary.