One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

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One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Shadow007 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:43 am

Just saw a quite bad review for Ogre ... let's the flame start ...

http://c0de517e.blogspot.com/2010/03/3d ... there.html
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Stefan Lundmark » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:22 pm

It's his opinion, obviously. I've only been developing games for so long, but I understand he's either not too experienced or simply just looking to stir up a discussion and get ad hits on his blog or he wouldn't make some of the claims he make. Multithreading your graphics library doesn't equal a successfull game. I agree XML is a bloat, but others disagree and if I don't like it I'm free to remove it and use whatever I like.

Ogre can't make a Crysis out of the box perhaps, but not everyone is looking to do that.
But primarly, knowing what makes a game work is useful if you're going to make a review on a big rendering library in 50 words. :roll:
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by syedhs » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:16 pm

XML is a bloat, but it isn't meant for production. He mentioned Collada, and it is only meant for interchange format, not final format - so I don't think he knows what he is talking, at least in this regard.

He should be more objective ie really elaborating instead of just describing Ogre in one paragraph - so in the end, I don't take his opinion seriously. And yes, he is entitled to his opinions as do everyone else :wink:
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Vectrex » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:24 pm

What does he mean by saying these engines are just text book engines? Is that bad? He didn't mention anything that ISN'T text book so I don't actually know what he means. He might have some good idea's but he's not great at conveying them :)
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by KungFooMasta » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:17 pm

One thing I will say about Ogre, I wish the DataTypes were in a separate project/lib. In my Engine I have to wrap the Vector3, Vector2, Quaternion, Degree, Radian, ColourValue, Math functions, etc. Would be nice if it was more decoupled from Ogre, so that the same data types could be re-used in other projects, without requiring the entire Ogre library.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by betajaen » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:03 pm

KungFooMasta wrote:In my Engine I have to wrap the Vector3, Vector2, Quaternion, Degree, Radian, ColourValue, Math functions, etc. Would be nice if it was more decoupled from Ogre, so that the same data types could be re-used in other projects, without requiring the entire Ogre library.
I agree.

It could be a good Ogre sub-project, and an excellent idea for Ogre Google Summer of Code '10.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by koirat » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:25 pm

This is a great idea.
How come somebody make it so late in ogre existence, this is a mystery. :P
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Praetor » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:35 pm

KungFooMasta wrote:One thing I will say about Ogre, I wish the DataTypes were in a separate project/lib. In my Engine I have to wrap the Vector3, Vector2, Quaternion, Degree, Radian, ColourValue, Math functions, etc. Would be nice if it was more decoupled from Ogre, so that the same data types could be re-used in other projects, without requiring the entire Ogre library.
Ogre is MIT licensed now, which means you can freely lift any sources you want right out. Want vectors and matrices without the rest of Ogre? Fine, grab the source, toss it in your project and away you go. Did this a few times. With the new license you can reuse Ogre's data types in a non-graphical app in no time.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Praetor » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:39 pm

He may also miss the point a bit. As many people do he lumped Ogre in with all game engines. The scopes are totally different. We certainly care about threading for instance and we're working on it. But we don't need to care nearly as much as a game engine should. The applications and engines built using Ogre certainly better worry about threading. Mixed scopes create some muddled logic.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by kraj0t » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:29 am

KungFooMasta wrote:I wish the DataTypes were in a separate project/lib. In my Engine I have to wrap the Vector3, Vector2, Quaternion, Degree, Radian, ColourValue, Math functions, etc.
I second that. I've had to do so in the past, and it feels dirty having to modify Ogre's sources so heavily.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by PolyVox » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:25 pm

Praetor wrote:Ogre is MIT licensed now, which means you can freely lift any sources you want right out. Want vectors and matrices without the rest of Ogre? Fine, grab the source, toss it in your project and away you go. Did this a few times. With the new license you can reuse Ogre's data types in a non-graphical app in no time.
Actually I was under the impression that the Ogre maths libraries were originally forked from the Wild Tangent ones. Did I completly make that up or is it true? And if it is the case, how was it possible to change the license on them to MIT?

Anyway, if you just need a maths library there are plenty of good standalone ones without pulling one out of Ogre. CML and Eigen spring to mind. Of course, the familiarity of the Ogre ones can be nice.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by milliams » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:35 pm

PolyVox wrote:Anyway, if you just need a maths library there are plenty of good standalone ones without pulling one out of Ogre. CML and Eigen spring to mind. Of course, the familiarity of the Ogre ones can be nice.
And of course the new Qt3D stuff (http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/qt4-6-intr ... d-enablers and, e.g. http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/qvector3d.html). There's not much there yet but there'll be more added in Qt 4.7 supposedly.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by stoneCold » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:54 pm

betajaen wrote:
KungFooMasta wrote:In my Engine I have to wrap the Vector3, Vector2, Quaternion, Degree, Radian, ColourValue, Math functions, etc. Would be nice if it was more decoupled from Ogre, so that the same data types could be re-used in other projects, without requiring the entire Ogre library.
I agree.

It could be a good Ogre sub-project, and an excellent idea for Ogre Google Summer of Code '10.
Exactly my thoughts on this topic, Ogre now being MIT and therefore allowing you to strip out parts isn't comparable to having a cleanly separated stand-alone library.
Also doing the work each and every time you want to upgrade your Ogre-using project to a new Ogre version would be quite a pain, since not only you'd have to eventually refractor your own project's code quite a bit to accommodate the changes, but also you'd have to refractor Ogre's source code as well to use the now "externalized" math/data types (unless you want to have duplicate code in your application).
I'd really love to see this happen (as a GsoC '10 project), although the amountof work might a little to small for a full GsoC project imo.

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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by sinbad » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:09 pm

PolyVox wrote:
Praetor wrote:Ogre is MIT licensed now, which means you can freely lift any sources you want right out. Want vectors and matrices without the rest of Ogre? Fine, grab the source, toss it in your project and away you go. Did this a few times. With the new license you can reuse Ogre's data types in a non-graphical app in no time.
Actually I was under the impression that the Ogre maths libraries were originally forked from the Wild Tangent ones. Did I completly make that up or is it true? And if it is the case, how was it possible to change the license on them to MIT?
Some of them were, although they've evolved quite a bit since then. The originals are Boost licensed (originally it was a custom 'free' license, but this changed), and this is declared in the headers; we don't change the license but it's compatible with MIT anyway.
// This file is based on material originally from:
// Geometric Tools, LLC
// Copyright (c) 1998-2010
// Distributed under the Boost Software License, Version 1.0.
// http://www.boost.org/LICENSE_1_0.txt
// http://www.geometrictools.com/License/B ... SE_1_0.txt
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by PolyVox » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:49 pm

milliams wrote:And of course the new Qt3D stuff (http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/qt4-6-intr ... d-enablers and, e.g. http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/qvector3d.html). There's not much there yet but there'll be more added in Qt 4.7 supposedly.
I didn't know about that, looks like they have some interesting 3D stuff planned for future Qt versions.
sinbad wrote:The originals are Boost licensed (originally it was a custom 'free' license, but this changed), and this is declared in the headers; we don't change the license but it's compatible with MIT anyway.
Ah, well that explains it then.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by JaJDoo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:49 pm

to me it sounds more like a simple rant. its not that i cant accept criticism about OGRE, its because there are so many things that make me itch or snort about this 'review'.

the first thing that really annoys me is the fact that most of what he says is either guesses or evaluation based solely on first one time impressions. for instance -
"The architecture does not look very interesting..." - mind to elaborate?
"A few years ago I remember looking into its lispsm shadows only to find it seriously broken.." - have you checked it lately? perhaps it has been dramatically changed?
"Panda3d: Another engine I don't know much about.." - why bring it up than ?
"...and he worked on Far Cry!"- ..snort...
"and it was made by ID. That's more than enough." - AHHARRRMM.. are you really comparing an engine about ten years old made by a team of professionals (that has not been updated a long time) to a community driven open source solution?
"Horde3d: I don't know much about this one, but some of its features sound right.." - again, if you don't really went deep enough to find out, why bring it up? other than that, horde3d is a new relatively engine, of course it makes a good first impressions. they *sound* right?
"maybe you should pay the small price that comes with Unity"- again, comparing an open source solution to a paid professional team. weren't we talking about open source?

i don't mind criticism. I've read a few unfavorable review of OGRE; i disagreed with some and pondered on others, but that's the nature of review - no review is 100% objective. even a feature list can be deceptive.

one might criticize OGRE for not being setup friendly. we all know it - OGRE makes a lot of people scratch their head while they setup their first application. we might say in response that after the setup is complete it has a wide array of tutorials based on the example framework that make the learning curve much more friendly without massing around with render device and so on.

'our' response doesn't ignore their point; it can only outweigh it for a potential 'customer'.

he seems to simply 'have something' against OGRE. i get it - i hate NVIDIA for no good reason. why? because I'm an ATI cultist. logic would have it that with all the free applications and stuff NVIDIA offers i would be an NVIDIA cultist, but my dad bought ATIs from the moment we had our 486. the only 'foreign' card i ever had was monster 2, and that was because you had to have 3DFX to play games in pentium 1 era.
but again, thats no a real basic for a review.

oh well.. just another blog entry.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by madmarx » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:51 pm

Please, don't be so hot about just another blog entry...
OGRE for not being setup friendly. we all know it
.
This depends on people, and what is more many professionals don't post on forums or on the internet.... how could you know what were their feelings...
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by JaJDoo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:07 pm

madmarx wrote:Please, don't be so hot about just another blog entry...
he reminded me of someone who made my brain boil..
madmarx wrote:
OGRE for not being setup friendly. we all know it
.
This depends on people, and what is more many professionals don't post on forums or on the internet.... how could you know what were their feelings...
i was speaking on behalf of the noob collective, my sincere apology.

the "we all know it" was apart of the next statement
"(we all know it - OGRE makes a lot of people scratch their head while they setup their first application", as in many 'ogre application wont run' threads in the help forum)
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Matheus Martino » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:54 pm

Not talking about what is true or not about ogre in that review, but i'm very intriged on how the poster of that blog said very good things of a engine that looks like a demonstration of a comercial product (Nebula3D for xbox and ps3), i tried to find screenshots or anything else that demonstrate what it can do in links he posted, but i found only broken links and links to blogs, i don't found any main website for that engine, the links are scatered among blogs, the RandonLabs website redirected me to a web site about broswer games :lol:

Everything else he said about the other engines are just: "I think it can do that... Or that", "The website says it can do that, that i think is good", "I don't know much about it, but it looks cool".

I'm my opinion he got paid to advertise Nebula3D or is working with it already so he was influenced. That review is of low quality and not technical or science-oriented.
Last edited by Matheus Martino on Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by Matheus Martino » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:58 pm

JaJDoo wrote:"(we all know it - OGRE makes a lot of people scratch their head while they setup their first application", as in many 'ogre application wont run' threads in the help forum)
I have a good thing to say about it:

We have a lot of posts about how to setup ogre because of all that tutorials and good comunity we have here, even ppl that some times fail to setup a source code to compile well can start learning ogre.
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Re: One quite not so good review of Ogre ...

Post by jacmoe » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:27 am

JaJDoo wrote:"(we all know it - OGRE makes a lot of people scratch their head while they setup their first application", as in many 'ogre application wont run' threads in the help forum)
That's because there's a surprising amount of users who think they can use Ogre without knowing anything about C++ and the tools they're using.
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