Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

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timl132
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Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:13 pm

Hi there!

So one day I got tired of all these thing Unreal Engine doesn't have, and I thought I could just create my own engine, so I went ahead and tryed some OpenGL things, but found it requiring way to much work for a single person to do within 2 years, so, I went looking for some renderers, and found Ogre.
So I have a few questions about Ogre:
1. Am I required to write my own shaders if I want PBR rendering and lighting, and have it look like Unreal Engine?
2. Would it be viable to write my own 3D game engine with Ogre3D?
3. And would the license allow me to do so?
4. This is kind of the same question as 1, but, can I get graphics quality like Unreal Engine has(provided I have good quality assets)?
5. Would Ogre3D also work on Mobile(Android) and work on linux(x86, 64, arm), and even on linux devices that only have Ogl ES?
6. How much of an renderer is Ogre3D? Is it more an Game Engine, Or Is it really a renderer where I have to find a way to load and save models and such myself?
7. Oh and, are there any BIG games done with Ogre3D? Some examples?

I hope someone can help me answer these questions!


Thanks!
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by xrgo » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:29 pm

Welcome!!

since you are comparing it to unrealEngine I am going to answer you based on Ogre 2.X (there are 2 version of ogre currently maintained 1.10 and 2.X, 2.X is most modern)

1) out of the box comes with a nice Pbr implementation that you can certainly extend to make it look close to unreal
2) yes, most of us do that
3) yes!
4) sort of.. unreal does a lot more things that Ogre don't have out the box, but with some work its definitely possible, look at my latest project: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91758#p541093 its not super hyper photorealistic but good enough and runs in VR
5) Linux yes! mobile only Ogre 1.10, 2.X will at some point... but it does work on ios with Metal render system (I think!)
6) Its a rendered in steroids, it actually does a lot more than just render... it does math, load and save models is .mesh format, scene managment, transformations hierarchy, etc. Not included: physics, sound, input (samples uses sdl), network, etc.
7) see this post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84762

Saludos!
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:36 pm

Thanks for your reply!
But do I have to use the .mesh format, or can I create my own loader?
And what do you mean with scene managment?
You mean that it has an object creation and such?
Is it possible to ignore that and create my own?
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by xrgo » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:32 pm

timl132 wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:36 pm
And what do you mean with scene managment?
You mean that it has an object creation and such?
yes, I think there is dotScene format support, and this new stuffs https://bitbucket.org/sinbad/ogre/src/8 ... t/?at=v2-1
I haven't tried them so I might be talking nonsense
timl132 wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:36 pm
But do I have to use the .mesh format, or can I create my own loader?
timl132 wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:36 pm
Is it possible to ignore that and create my own?
yes you can! I actually do that, I read blender files directly and use blender as my scene/mesh/physics/material/etc editor. I generate everything by code from what I read from the blend file, Ogre its pretty damn flexible, be aware that those are some advance topics ;)
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:43 am

Thanks for your reply.
So, provided I give enough effort, I can create Unreal Engine graphics, as there don' t seem to be a lot of examples of that out there.
I am planning on creating a visual shader/material creator Unreal Engine has so it makes creating shaders easier.
But just to verify again, do I have to write my own shaders to get it looking like Unreal Engine, would photorealistic be possible like Unreal?
This really seems like a good choise as a renderig engine, even though it has a funny name and logo and I think it can be used for a lot more then people seem to use it for now.
I will create my own Unreal Engine/Unity style editor, so I can design my future games, even though I plan to built an In-Game world editor for my first.

Thanks

edit:
So I have been googling around for examples of the details I need and found this picture:
Image
It is a screen of Train Sim World, a game where you drive trains. I am also creating a Train Simulator, and I was wondering, can I get this type of graphics capabilities out of ogre, without having to rewrite every shader and/or rendering part in Ogre?(And off course. provided I got the models with this amount of detail)
If yes, I'll directly delete the whole Unreal Engine from my PC and start developing!
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:03 am

timl132 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:43 am
Thanks for your reply.
So, provided I give enough effort, I can create Unreal Engine graphics, as there don' t seem to be a lot of examples of that out there.
I am planning on creating a visual shader/material creator Unreal Engine has so it makes creating shaders easier.
But just to verify again, do I have to write my own shaders to get it looking like Unreal Engine, would photorealistic be possible like Unreal?
This really seems like a good choise as a renderig engine, even though it has a funny name and logo and I think it can be used for a lot more then people seem to use it for now.
I will create my own Unreal Engine/Unity style editor, so I can design my future games, even though I plan to built an In-Game world editor for my first.

Thanks

edit:
So I have been googling around for examples of the details I need and found this picture:
Image
It is a screen of Train Sim World, a game where you drive trains. I am also creating a Train Simulator, and I was wondering, can I get this type of graphics capabilities out of ogre, without having to rewrite every shader and/or rendering part in Ogre?(And off course. provided I got the models with this amount of detail)
If yes, I'll directly delete the whole Unreal Engine from my PC and start developing!
?
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by hedphelym » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:17 pm

With the new features of Ogre 2.0 I'd say you can reach the same kind of graphics,
but you have to keep in mind that with unreal\unity you get a lot of things out of the box,
but for Ogre you have to do more work to enable the different features and get it all put together.

Also in the image you posted, a lot of that is just proper shader\texture work, it seems to be a lot of baked shadows and such as well,
looks like a typical 'substance' workflow, and there is no reason why you could not do the same with Ogre.
It supports PBS shading, so it's a matter of creating the proper texture maps \ shader setup to get it to look like in the screenshot,
but also obviously lighting, and Ogre supports HDRI\SMAA\GI \ dynamic reflection cubemapping and a lot of other things.

If you compile the latest source, including the sample projects - then you see what kind of features
you have available. It supports a lot of the new 'fancy' features that are popular today.

You just have to keep in mind that enabling the different features is not as easy as in unreal, it's not a checkbox that you tick off,
you have to add the code needed to enable it in your projects.

Dig around a bit and get the samples running, then you get a better impression about how things work with the latest Ogre.
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:41 pm

hedphelym wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:17 pm
With the new features of Ogre 2.0 I'd say you can reach the same kind of graphics,
but you have to keep in mind that with unreal\unity you get a lot of things out of the box,
but for Ogre you have to do more work to enable the different features and get it all put together.

Also in the image you posted, a lot of that is just proper shader\texture work, it seems to be a lot of baked shadows and such as well,
looks like a typical 'substance' workflow, and there is no reason why you could not do the same with Ogre.
It supports PBS shading, so it's a matter of creating the proper texture maps \ shader setup to get it to look like in the screenshot,
but also obviously lighting, and Ogre supports HDRI\SMAA\GI \ dynamic reflection cubemapping and a lot of other things.

If you compile the latest source, including the sample projects - then you see what kind of features
you have available. It supports a lot of the new 'fancy' features that are popular today.

You just have to keep in mind that enabling the different features is not as easy as in unreal, it's not a checkbox that you tick off,
you have to add the code needed to enable it in your projects.

Dig around a bit and get the samples running, then you get a better impression about how things work with the latest Ogre.
Thanks for your reply! Will go and compile the samples when I get home, but do you mean with Shader work, Good PBR textures or Actual Shader Coding?(Thus replacing Unreals default PBR system?)
I'll go and look in the examples a bit, any idea how hard it would be to intergrate things like post-processing?

Edit:
Just to verify, you are sure I can reach that type of quality, as I really need it.
And i tried compilin ogre, but my 8GB of memory goes up to 99% where everything, including compiling, becomes horribly slow. Till VS2017 crashes.
Any way to solve that?
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by hedphelym » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:35 pm

What I mean is good textures, combined with Ogre's already existing PBR shader system.
There is a simple PBR sample (HDRI\SMAA) example project, this shows the 'metalness' feature and such,
keep in mind it's basic, but what I'd suggest is to start by looking at that one.

also there is a HLMS editor here, which can help you on your way:
https://github.com/spookyboo/HLMSEditor
It saves to the material .json format for Ogre, so it's easy to get things tested and ready with this editor.

Then get your own model loaded in there, with your own textures and such to get a feel for it.

I have 6GB ram, and I could compile Ogre (linux \ windows).
Not sure why that happens on your end, but sometimes VS is acting up a bit, so if it still fails - try a reboot and compile again,
or let it sit longer even though it uses all the ram (if it caches on disk it makes things unresponsive).
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:37 pm

hedphelym wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:35 pm
What I mean is good textures, combined with Ogre's already existing PBR shader system.
There is a simple PBR sample (HDRI\SMAA) example project, this shows the 'metalness' feature and such,
keep in mind it's basic, but what I'd suggest is to start by looking at that one.

also there is a HLMS editor here, which can help you on your way:
https://github.com/spookyboo/HLMSEditor
It saves to the material .json format for Ogre, so it's easy to get things tested and ready with this editor.

Then get your own model loaded in there, with your own textures and such to get a feel for it.

I have 6GB ram, and I could compile Ogre (linux \ windows).
Not sure why that happens on your end, but sometimes VS is acting up a bit, so if it still fails - try a reboot and compile again,
or let it sit longer even though it uses all the ram (if it caches on disk it makes things unresponsive).
Ah thanks, well, got it to compile.
But ⅓ of the samples in the Sample Browser in DirextX mode crash or have something wrong. But the ones i've tried seem to work in opengl3 mode.
I will probably choose ogre3d as my renderer, but there is one thing that bothers me: There don't seem to ve any showoff things like Archviz and such in unreal engine, which i find kinda disapointing.
So I think I will start porting such a unreal scene to ogre3d and show some screenshits of it.
But the main thing I am wondering right now is, why do a lot of directx11 samples not work? Is it because I run them in Debug?

Thanks
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by hedphelym » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:58 pm

I had trouble with Dirext-x 11 samples if I set FSAA on the highest setting, so you might want to test that if you set it high (just lower it and start again).
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:51 pm

Thanks!
Will try to experiment with some examples and see if I can load some of my models, and i'll see what I think about it, will post back.
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by hedphelym » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:39 am

Also, see these screenshots from a game made with Ogre:

https://twitter.com/howieeday/status/977639114487971840


Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:00 am

Looks awesome! Thanks!
Will currently build a tiny engine around it so I can add and remove objets and such.
Do you think it is a good choise to directly build an editor with gui for later games.(Even though I don' t need it for my current game?)
Or just create the editor as a seperate project and create my future games around that, but not for my current game?(Because everything must be loaded at runtime, so an editor is useless for my current game)
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by frostbyte » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:44 am

timl132 wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:37 pm
But ⅓ of the samples in the Sample Browser in DirextX mode crash or have something wrong. But the ones i've tried seem to work in opengl3 mode.
AFAIK sampleBrowser only works for ogre1.10 and has been deprecated with ogre2.1( i think it was only recently removed from the 2.1 branch ) so if you want to use PBR and an advanced rendering pipeline make sure you pulled 2.1 branch and not the 1.10 branch( aka "default branch" )
timl132 wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:37 pm
I will probably choose ogre3d as my renderer, but there is one thing that bothers me: There don't seem to ve any showoff things like Archviz and such in unreal engine, which i find kinda disapointing. So I think I will start porting such a unreal scene to ogre3d and show some screenshits of it.
grt...ogre can really use that....cant wait to see :)
But the main thing I am wondering right now is, why do a lot of directx11 samples not work? Is it because I run them in Debug?
if i'm right and you're testing 1.10 samples then dx11 is not a preferable backend( still work at progress )
while ogre 1.10 has dx11/gl3+ backends with some level of stability( not sure what level ) ogre1.x wasn't really designed to take advantage of this api's and still has deep roots into the fixed function pipeline( aka dx8 )
ogre2.1 is a different story all-together

but anyways, i never used debug mode- beside the fact that i totally hate debuggers( i just use logs and try/catch ), it really cripples the rendering performance almost to being unbearable( funny word ) - takes out all the fun...
Do you think it is a good choise to directly build an editor with gui for later games.(Even though I don' t need it for my current game?)
no, pls don't, you'll end up writing an editor for the next 5 years( plenty of this in the ogre-graveyard ) just write your game , use a professional editor( e.g blender ) for assets/scene-creation and ogre for rendering your game
really, it's a common mistake, and the best way to make sure you'll never finish your game
anyhow if you do, you can use project magus(ogre 2.1 ) or ogitor( ogre 1.10 ) as a starting point
check with the search-bar for this ones, good luck...
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by paroj » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:27 pm

frostbyte wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:44 am
AFAIK sampleBrowser only works for ogre1.10 and has been deprecated with ogre2.1( i think it was only recently removed from the 2.1 branch ) so if you want to use PBR and an advanced rendering pipeline make sure you pulled 2.1 branch and not the 1.10 branch( aka "default branch" )
while you have a much more advanced rendering pipeline in 2.1, you can have PBR with the default branch as well: ;)
https://www.ogre3d.org/2017/12/31/ogre- ... al-release

but you probably will have to customize the shaders to your needs manually.
frostbyte wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:44 am
if i'm right and you're testing 1.10 samples then dx11 is not a preferable backend( still work at progress )
while ogre 1.10 has dx11/gl3+ backends with some level of stability( not sure what level )
the dx11 backend is actually pretty mature and is also used in production. Its just that nobody has stepped up to update the samples/ VTests.

The GL3+ backend on the other hand is pretty much on parity in the VTests with the fixed function pipline in GL:
https://ogrecave.github.io/ogre/gl_stat ... 3Plus.html

also there actually are some advantages of using GL3+ with 1.x:
viewtopic.php?t=93970
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Re: Next-gen 3D engine and pbr with ogre3D?

Post by timl132 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:35 pm

Thanks, so what would be the best thing to use for my current game?
V2.1 or V1.10
This are my requirements:
-There will be lots of objects(trees, fences, houses, rocks, bridges and other misc things), so to be able to efficiently draw 5000-10000 objects would be very nice.
-PBR
-Good performance
-Also need some functions like Post Processing, Custom Handling and saving of Meshes, objects and textures.
-Need a good PBR material system, but don't need it to be able to load from a file, that I will do myself.
-Not the main thing in the game, so not that I have to develop my whole game around Ogre3D, but instead have Ogre3D as a component, thus use it in a way I can create my own renderer(but probably wont do that, but if) and only have to replace ogre functions, and not have to create whole new functions and classes so it still works.
-Support Muliple terrains
-Also I need splines and mesh splines, but I don't thing Ogre has those, but I just put it here anyway.
-I need modern rendering, look at the picture I posted above of the train, I need that kind of graphics. So I may be better of choosing V2 for this, as I don't thing the old DX9 will be good for modern rendering.

What would be best to choose according to these requirements, I think V2, But would like to hear your input too!


Thanks
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