Which Linux is Best for Ogre?

Anything and everything that's related to OGRE or the wider graphics field that doesn't fit into the other forums.
Andre_Mikulec
Gnoblar
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:57 pm

Which Linux is Best for Ogre?

Post by Andre_Mikulec »

All,

I want to setup a computer with an OS Partition of Linux to run Ogre (and pyOgre).

I am concerned about the choice of which Linux: Fedora 3, Mandriva (Mandrake), Debian, Debian Derivaties: Knoppix, Ubuntu, Mepis, and others.

My major concern is the installation of Ogre on Linux (Intel machines) on a partition of my hard drive.
Does it use .deb files or .rpms?
Which flavor of Linux will Ogre install? Which are Linux's that will be problem-installs?

Which Linux flavors have you used and do work?

Thanks,
Andre
Andre_Mikulec@Hotmail.com
AIM

User avatar
LordMyth
Gremlin
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by LordMyth »

ALL linux distro's work... it just doesn't use deb's or RPM, only pure GNU tools, everything needs to be compiled by yourself. About the distro to choose: go with Gentoo. It's just the best. Ohh.. but you sound a bit like a n00b with linux... better take Ubuntu, it's very cool!
Last edited by LordMyth on Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a kiss from me!
Gentoo Linux on AMD64 3200+
NForce4 Chipset
Dual Channel DDR 2x512MB
PCX 16 GeForce 6600 256MB

User avatar
Clay
OGRE Community Helper
OGRE Community Helper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:14 am
Contact:

Post by Clay »

As far as I know, Debian will be your best bet (or perhaps one of the related alternatives that uses apt-get). Debian has the full Ogre and PyOgre build chain as .debs, and you can get a .deb for Ogre itself (a pyogre .deb will be released when we are ready to package it).

Edit: I would not recommend gentoo unless you are familiar with compiling and installing applications yourself. The current Gentoo ebuild of Ogre is 0.15.1, and the actual release of ogre is 1.0.1. Debian has ogre 1.0.0 (and maybe 1.0.1 soon), so you can avoid having to compile ogre if you don't want to.

User avatar
LordMyth
Gremlin
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by LordMyth »

As Clay says Debian flavors are the best for beginners (and he MUST be right), I would say, go with Ubuntu, it's way easier then pure Debian. Clay gets the right to say this is bullshit and that you should get real Debian from me.
***Ehh, this wasn't meant to be sarcastic or so! I also do think Debian style would be good for him
Last edited by LordMyth on Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a kiss from me!
Gentoo Linux on AMD64 3200+
NForce4 Chipset
Dual Channel DDR 2x512MB
PCX 16 GeForce 6600 256MB

User avatar
Clay
OGRE Community Helper
OGRE Community Helper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:14 am
Contact:

Post by Clay »

Don't take it personally. Gentoo is good, and I like it better than debian (hell, I used to be a gentoo developer).

I only suggest debian if you are if you are not familiar with compiling software. Gentoo's Ogre package is not up to date, so you'll have to build it yourself, whereas if you use debian (or a variant with apt-get) you won't have to. If you feel comfortable with this, then I do recommend gentoo.

jonnii
Halfling
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:10 am

Post by jonnii »

i used to run gentoo, it's a nice distro, but the speed benefits you get from compiling your own apps with -ffun-roll-loops -funroll-dongs -fturbo-charged-balls isnt really worth it, plus you have to jump through hoops to get all your hardware working as you like it.

i'd recommend ubuntu (which is basically just a nicely packaged version of debian sarge). it's an awesome distro and comes with everything you'll need to do ogre dev.

User avatar
:wumpus:
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 3067
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:53 pm
Location: The Netherlands
x 1

Post by :wumpus: »

I generally use gentoo, which is a very good distribution if you want to compile things. At least you don't have to worry about 83473 blahblah-dev packages like with SuSe. And the resulting flooding of the forums with pointless 'hey, why is this .h missing' messages :)

If you plan on keeping up with CVS ogre v1_0 branch, as I recommend instead of using a binary package, I think gentoo is a good choice. (note that I have zero experience with Debian or Ubuntu or friends so they might be good for development too)

User avatar
shaft
Halfling
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:54 am

Post by shaft »

I use gentoo... Unless your goal is to master linux, don't use Gentoo. If you are like me you will spend weeks learning to get gentoo up and running, and in the mean time you will learn a ton about linux. If you just want a linux operating system that is quick and easy, other distros are far easier to get up an running.
- Shaft (He's a bad motha... Shut yo' mouth)

User avatar
pjcast
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 2543
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:53 am
Location: San Diego, Ca
x 2
Contact:

Post by pjcast »

I like simplicity, and have had no problems (err, few) using Fedora Core 1 & 2... So, I would recommend Fedora.
Have a question about Input? Video? WGE? Come on over... http://www.wreckedgames.com/forum/

stodge
Goblin
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:12 am
x 1
Contact:

Post by stodge »

I think it all comes down to whichever you're more comfortable with.

Andre_Mikulec
Gnoblar
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:57 pm

Post by Andre_Mikulec »

About 2 years ago I used a 3rd party tool to create a linux partition and an ext2? partition on my hard drive. I set up booting from a diskette. I installed Redhat 7.0? At that time Redhat still gave distributable CDs.
I looked at Redhat. It was nice.

I have tried the LiveCD version of Ubuntu. It seems that the pre 5.04 Ubuntu was missing g++ and gcc. From the list posted on their web site, the claim is that g++ and gcc do exist in the current "hoary" 5.04 distribution (and this is good if they are truthful and I did not miss anything.)

I do have UNIX user (at work) experience. I do administer SOME SOFTWARE that runs on HPUX.

I also, at home, I play with Cygwin (and X) a lot. I have the full distribution installed and working. This is fun.

I have also tried the Knoppix LiveCD (only LiveCD is available). It looked nice too.

My major disadvantage is that I can not upgrade from the the internet. I can not get an internet connection. I have to download from a third party site onto a Zip-100 MB disk or a 128 MB Flash USB drive. Therefore, the case seems that my use of apt-get is limited. I am wondering how this affects Ogre distributions in the future.

In the past (in the cygwin) environnment I had not diffuculties using ./configure and make to compile executables.

Is downloading OGRE source code and compiling using ./configure and make going to me a problem in the future? Am I just limited to .deb and .rpms?

Currently, I am biased in favor of Ubuntu 5.04 (try again). Second Choice is a Fedora *. Third choice seems to be a Knoppix. Fourth choice seems to be Mantriva (just because its big and the French like it).

Again, the internet download item is a problem for me. Any other linux flavor ideas?

Andre
Andre_Mikulec@Hotmail.com
AIM

User avatar
Poseidon
Kobold
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:48 pm
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Post by Poseidon »

I also use Gentoo. I think it's just the best distribution, if you have time and want to customize your system. Its package management system works nearly perfect, whereas I had some problems with debians.
But if you are new to Linux, DON'T USE GENTOO !! :lol: Even Debian is not that easy and takes time. I used SuSE Linux, which was OK for the first steps !

User avatar
Olex
Hobgoblin
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:08 pm
Location: WA, USA

Post by Olex »

It's Linux distro flame wars!

Come'oooooon! Bring it! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

But seriously: just follow the coding principles: get it working first, then optimize. :wink:

User avatar
:wumpus:
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 3067
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:53 pm
Location: The Netherlands
x 1

Post by :wumpus: »

Poseidon wrote: But if you are new to Linux, DON'T USE GENTOO !! :lol: Even Debian is not that easy and takes time. I used SuSE Linux, which was OK for the first steps !
SuSe is very ok for people that don't need to develop and just do some webbrowsing and openoffice (my father, coming from windows, liked it very much). But for serious development (requiring up-to-date packages and a recent compiler) I suggest Debian or Gentoo.

Might be somewhat more complex to set up, but you won't regret it later. I did get Ogre running on a SuSe box and I had to install all kinds of things (DevIL, zziplib) the old fashioned ./configure ./make way as there were no packages.. Messy. And certainly not easier for newbies.

User avatar
fog
Greenskin
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Torino, ITALY
Contact:

Post by fog »

Yep yep yep. Distro wars. :D

I usually like to spend less time as possible compiling dependencies to concentrate on what I want to do. That's why a long time ago (8 years) I choosed Debian. Debian currently has Ogre 1.0.1 and CEGUI 0.2.0 packages compiled with or without debug symbols (-dbg packages). If you just want to develop using Ogre (versus developing Ogre itself) Debian is your best bet. IMHO. Just:

Code: Select all

apt-get install blender-ogrexml ogre-doc ogre-tools libogre-dev libcegui-mk2-dev

User avatar
Poseidon
Kobold
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:48 pm
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Post by Poseidon »

:wumpus: wrote:But for serious development (requiring up-to-date packages and a recent compiler) I suggest Debian or Gentoo.
Sure, that's right. Too me, Gentoo is choice number 1 for developement, cause it installs all header files of the packages by default. Compiling all apps takes its time, but having all the headers is really great.
BUT: If you are new to Linux, it will take you some time to set up gentoo the way you can use it for efficient developement. At least it took me some time (ok, I know, certainly I'm not the smartest guy on the planet :lol: )

stodge
Goblin
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:12 am
x 1
Contact:

Post by stodge »

If you don't have an internet connection then you'll be in trouble - Ubuntu installs a base system and you download other apps you want to install (e.g. GCC) from their servers. Once you install Fedora you can download updates and other programs, although if you have the three main Fedora ISOs, then you don't really need to install anything other than zziplib, Devil and CG for developing with OGRE. This is probably also true for Debian and Suse and others.

Andre_Mikulec
Gnoblar
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:57 pm

Post by Andre_Mikulec »

OK, for the Meanwhile, since I do not have an internet connection (I hava 28K internet connection. This is really slow), I will just try Fedora 3. I have worked with Redhat 7 in the past. It seems Fedora 3 is more like Redhat 9. I will see if this works for me. (I will see if can compile OGRE and etc.). If it does not work, I will just try some other distribution. Thanks for all of the opinions.

Andre
Andre_Mikulec@Hotmail.com
AIM

innovati
Kobold
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Ontario Canada
Contact:

Honest answer

Post by innovati »

Okay, this is a question that I have had and just come up with the answer to myself.

I have been using linux for almost half a decade now, I've used almost every distro out there (apart from gentoo because of the bad user base).

I have always considered Mandrake (now Mandriva) as my 'home OS' because of it's easy no-fuss configuration. Now, starting my own game project using OGRE I'm gonna have to make some changes. I'll summarize the strong points to each of the distros and then state my opinion at the end - there's a reason for different distros, personal taste has a lot to do with it.

RPM based distros:

Redhat / Fedora
This was considreed the best distro and truly was one of the first 'good' commercial quality distro. Redhat has done immeasurable good for Linux, including adding the 'RPM', Redhat Package Manager, system for simplifying the packaging and installation of programs.

Pros
- Well supported, large community, top-notch
- uses the RPM system for painless installation and uninstallation
- copmatible with most programs

Cons
- Fedora copmared to other distros has been recorded to have approximately 1/2 of the performance in multimedia than it's cousin, SuSE linux

Mandriva
Formerly known as Mandrake, before the merging with Brazilian Linux research and development company: Connectiva. This distro is known for it's user-friendly and easy to use/install features. It's fully graphical installer and graphical re-partitioner have won awards as being the easiest OS to install.

Pros
- uses RPM system
- the future looks bright with the merge, just give it a month or two before radical change for good appear
- easy to install, use and maintain
- URPMI, a command-line extension of RPM has been repeatedly hailed better than Apt-get by numerous developpers

Cons
- unless you get the 'cooker' RPMs, the 'stable' repositories are never quite current enough with the rest of the world. This ensures that your system is stable and works together, but sometimes installing current programs from source can be a challenge

SuSE
This was a german-based variant of Redhat intended to make it easier to use and faster. Now owned by Novell, it is widely replacing Redhat Linux, the old industry standard, in the server market.

Pros
- uses RPM's
- backed by Novell

Cons
- not as 'free' as other distros, it's better to buy it and get more

Debian:

What can we say, Debian is not a distro but a family of distros. It is very current with all releases of new software due to it's immense size. Extremely configurable and is typically the first distro on strange hardware (iPods, cameras, phones)

Pros
- only what you want installed
- fast and reliable

Cons
- stable releases behind, but not as far as other distros

Linspire
a commercial distro of Debian, highly customized and fully 100% open-source. It is not an evil, MS-like company like most linux users let on, but actually a good copmany that sponsors lots of niec things and projects that we all benefit from.

Pros
- releiable, especially Linspire five-O
- one of the nicest desktops on the PC
- fully 100% open-source

Cons
- if you want to use their custom packaging software, you need to subscribe, although you can use apt-get freely and use almost any debian package, it just isn't garunteed to work, and their packaging subscription cost also covers proprietary linux apps not availbe under apt-get

Gentoo
A distro based around the idea of fully-source copmiling your own distro. Wide user-base.

Pros
- minutely faster than other distros
- bleeding edge packages, through a 'good' package system

Cons
- some of the userbase, hence the reputation is of these W4r3z h4xxoring linux users who are full of themselves and pirate other software. Although this doesn't represent every user of this distro, it seems that all people like this use *this* distro.
- less intercompatibility with other distros in terms of software

My choice
I have considered these options for some time now, and I have come to the realization that the best choice for what I want to do (make a game using OGRE, GIMP, Blender and ODE, while running EnlightenmentDR17) would be Debian. Others have come to Gentoo. It really seems like those two are the best players for development from what I've seen.

My opinion goes like this: Mandriva for desktop, SuSE for server, Debian for development, Fedora for laughing at, Ubuntu for admiring how nicely other distros recognize hardware, Gentoo for that old 486 that the other Linux are sluggish on.

Another distro you might want to check out is Slackware, very nice, very expert, very good.

Hope I have helped some people with this. I would also like you to know that I will be running Debian on a PowerPC, as I think that architecture is better for development, and that Dell VS. Apple for the same systems, Apple is cheaper every time!

User avatar
:wumpus:
OGRE Retired Team Member
OGRE Retired Team Member
Posts: 3067
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:53 pm
Location: The Netherlands
x 1

Re: Honest answer

Post by :wumpus: »

Most of your points make sense but...
innovati wrote: - some of the userbase, hence the reputation is of these W4r3z h4xxoring linux users who are full of themselves and pirate other software. Although this doesn't represent every user of this distro, it seems that all people like this use *this* distro.
Stop this FUD will you? .. Sorry for the rant but this makes no sense. Just because some script kiddies use it means it is a con to using it? Does the distribution in any way try to influence you into behaving like that?
Because it probably requires the deepest linux experience to use it of all distributions does mean it attracts technical people, good and bad. That doesn't make it a weapon of mass destruction though.. And even if it did, that would mean it's very powerful in the right hands :D

User avatar
LordMyth
Gremlin
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by LordMyth »

Yeah, I'm with Wumpus; have you ever been to the Gentoo forums yet? They are REALLY friendly up there.
If you want to learn linux (wich is a must, you will see the mist around everything Linux clearing up while using Gentoo) go with it.
Last edited by LordMyth on Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Have a kiss from me!
Gentoo Linux on AMD64 3200+
NForce4 Chipset
Dual Channel DDR 2x512MB
PCX 16 GeForce 6600 256MB

User avatar
Olex
Hobgoblin
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:08 pm
Location: WA, USA

Post by Olex »

Sigh... Some people are simply afraid of unknown. I've been using Gentoo for over a year. I'm not a script kiddie. I'm just a graphics programmer. I moved to Gentoo from Fedora Core 2. I have found Gentoo very easy to configure and update.

As a programmer I feel at home. Why? Because Gentoo compiles everything, and thus this distro is insured to have no issues with compiling. All packages you install will have headers installed right out of box. Which means, OGRE development is easy.

Besided, say you want to install KXMLEditor. Under gentoo, all u need to do is:

Code: Select all

emerge kxmleditor
That's it!

User avatar
charlie
Greenskin
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:43 pm
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Honest answer

Post by charlie »


SuSE

Cons
- not as 'free' as other distros, it's better to buy it and get more
Some time passes by until they put the newest iso files on there servers. If you want the 9.2 you can grab it here ftp://gd.tuwien.ac.at/linux/suse/suse.com/i386/9.2/iso/

For the newest release 9.3 (2weeks old I think) search a little and you'll find it ;) or in the bittorrent network.

(I personally use suse, just to mention it ;) )

genericplayer
Kobold
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:14 pm

Re: Honest answer

Post by genericplayer »

:wumpus: wrote:Because it probably requires the deepest linux experience to use it of all distributions does mean it attracts technical people, good and bad.
This is simply not the case. Gentoo does not require any extra special linux experience to use it. Its just a matter of following simple directions, there's nothing difficult about it. This misconception makes people think that because they typed what someone else told them, then watched a bunch of stuff scroll by on their screen that now they are 31337 unix admins.

And no offense, but I find gentoo repells technical people, as they realize that compiling everything on your machine doesn't provide any benefit over using packages compiled on someone elses machine. Once you realize the big selling point of gentoo is in fact a misconception, gentoo simply becomes "the distro that wastes your time". There's a reason that most of the rediculous questions I get are from gentoo users, it atracts tons of people who are new to linux, and want to think they are smarter than other linux users.

User avatar
Clay
OGRE Community Helper
OGRE Community Helper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:14 am
Contact:

Post by Clay »

I'll grant you the fact that a lot of the gentoo selling point is based on optimisation for your hardware. That's not why a lot of technical people use gentoo.

The biggest reason to use gentoo is their very well thought out package system that is kept up-to-date with even the most bleeding edge of packages. Gentoo is not without its problems, for sure. First of all, USE flags are a botch. And you have to sit through compiling everything, which is why I would never recommend it for a stable server environment.

However, experianced users tolerate the USE flags and the compile times for the benefit of gentoo: a fantastic package system that you can keep up to date with current releases. If you are going to complain about why experianced (technical) users use gentoo, at least understand the reasons first.

If I were in charge of gentoo, I'd add binary packages that contained a base set of "friendly" optimisations (-O2, and optimised for i686), and turn on all the optional USE flags for compilation. That way, if someone wants to use binary packages they can simply use the default. Source building would still be an option if you wanted to tweak how a package was built, and possibly the optimisations. USE flags are terrible too. There should be a handfull of USE flags that affect all of the builds, and the gentoo developers should fight tooth and nail to keep them at a minimal level. Everything else should be package level configuration or groups of packages-level configuration. Setting "+X -gtk +qt +alsa" does not need to be done for your binutils install, it should instead only be specified when you are building X and KDE. The emerge program should also be able to report and tell you what USE flags for a package or group of packages does, and what options you have.

That's my opinion, I could be wrong.

/rantmode off

Post Reply