Torchlight

A place to show off your latest screenshots and for people to comment on them. Only start a new thread here if you have some nice images to show off!
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Azgur
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Azgur »

It's not a game, it's a platform \o/

I can see how this is going to entertain me for quite some hours.
And I absolutely like the price range. I'll certainly buy it, unlike the 60-70 euro sequels that are being released lately.
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aerique
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Re: Torchlight

Post by aerique »

Another question: did you guys make any modifications to the Ogre engine itself or was the current API enough? (which version btw.?)

And yeah, thanks for Diablo. That game cost me my study :)
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Re: Torchlight

Post by davedes »

Great art style, the game looks fantastic.

I don't usually buy games but this one might be an exception. :) Looking forward to modding Torchlight!
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Re: Torchlight

Post by tbaldree »

We've made some pretty minor changes to Ogre -

I added one line to animation blending to fix an issue we had with animations blending when using scaled bones
if (scl != 1.0f || scale != Vector3::UNIT_SCALE)
{
scale = Vector3::UNIT_SCALE + (scale - Vector3::UNIT_SCALE) * weight * scl;
}
at line 513 of AnimationNodeTrack



We made the ribbon support 2D textures and recalc the UVs down the length of the ribbon, as well as added the ability to set the position explicitly of the nodes on the ribbon. (for things like lightning bolts )

And we also added the ability to get the filepath in some of the listeners so that we could manage some resource collisions inside of monolithic zip files - we have a lot of assets that have the exact same name, and our previous solution of making resource-groups per folder broke down with zips.

But that's about it! ALMOST vanilla.



more Ogre pimpin' here on play magazine.

http://www.playmagazine.com/index.php?f ... entid=1747
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Re: Torchlight

Post by sinbad »

tbaldree wrote:We've made some pretty minor changes to Ogre -

I added one line to animation blending to fix an issue we had with animations blending when using scaled bones
if (scl != 1.0f || scale != Vector3::UNIT_SCALE)
{
scale = Vector3::UNIT_SCALE + (scale - Vector3::UNIT_SCALE) * weight * scl;
}
at line 513 of AnimationNodeTrack

We made the ribbon support 2D textures and recalc the UVs down the length of the ribbon, as well as added the ability to set the position explicitly of the nodes on the ribbon. (for things like lightning bolts )

And we also added the ability to get the filepath in some of the listeners so that we could manage some resource collisions inside of monolithic zip files - we have a lot of assets that have the exact same name, and our previous solution of making resource-groups per folder broke down with zips.

But that's about it! ALMOST vanilla.
Any chance of a patch? You'd need to publish those changes somewhere anyway when you came to release, so if you'd like them to make it back into the mainline instead (which would probably be more convenient for you going forward, taking other bugfixes etc), then we have a procedure for that :)

Thanks for all the pimpage!
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Re: Torchlight

Post by tbaldree »

We were going to do the OUL prior to release, just because if felt like we ought to, but I have no objections to releasing a patch.

Mostly, I'm not sure if we'll have time to shine them up and to make sure they work for everybody else before our release, although I'd be happy to just provide a diff when we're all done and you can see if there's anything you'd like to keep.

The animation change concerns me, because I don' t know if anyone else has developed content relying on the current behavior ( although I don't THINK it would cause anyone any issues - but you just never know )

The ribbon change could also adversely affect a prior user who used a 2D texture as a 1D texture, as the visuals would suddenly appear different. We also altered the usage of colors on a ribbon which again might cause some problems.

Any preferences on how to handle that sort of thing? We're on a pretty tight shipping timeline at present, so won't have much (if any) time to devote to making a publicly usable version with backward compatibility for others - which was the main reasoning or us to do the OUL, and not because we're protective of our minor changes.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Shadow007 »

Please Sinbad correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll try and reply to tbaldree given what I understand your 'stance' on the subject is :

The OUL is mostly a way to tell companies that if they NEED to keep their evolutions secret, they can... but it's not Sinbad's preferred way.

On the opposite, by publishing a "patch" (I think a diff file would already be enough), you contribute to Ogre's code base.
In due time, Sinbad will review the code and integrate at least parts of it in the code-base (perhaps in a later version if the change is not completely problem-free for current-users), which will be a gain for everybody.

If you consider it's not enough, you can still contribute financially by using the "Sponsoring" Ogre. There's even a "corporate sponsoring" program, with some additional "bonuses" to both projects...

I think the "safest way" to decide which license to choose would be to talk to Sinbad directly about it.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by sinbad »

tbaldree wrote:Any preferences on how to handle that sort of thing? We're on a pretty tight shipping timeline at present, so won't have much (if any) time to devote to making a publicly usable version with backward compatibility for others - which was the main reasoning or us to do the OUL, and not because we're protective of our minor changes.
It's fine to send us a patch that may have some issues; if you explain your reasoning for the changes, and any issues you know about, we can then decide what, if anything, to fold back into the core, and in what form. I rewrite many patches just based on the principles that people were trying to address, with the patch just as a reference point so I know for sure what was trying to be achieved. Overall the process is still useful to the overall development of Ogre even if the original patch wasn't appropriate in a general sense.

The LGPL doesn't actually require you to create a version that's general enough to work 'in the wild', it just requires that the receiver of your application is able to build a version of Ogre for themselves from source which matches the version that you've used in your binary (with all the in-built assumptions / specialisations you made just for your use). So, you could fulfil that simply by providing details of the base Ogre version you used, with a link to where the recipient could get it (most probably our website) and a patch file including the changes you made. On a longer term basis people generally prefer to have their changes merged back into the core, becuase it makes ongoing maintenance a bit simpler, but it's not actually a requirement of the LGPL that that be done - just that the recipient of the modified binary can build the same version with the same changes if they choose to.

We do try to encourage people to use the LGPL wherever possible - obviously that doesn't result in any financial benefit for Ogre compared to the OUL, but it does seed the market further with the premise that open source really isn't anything to be frightened of in a commercial environment, which longer term is probably more beneficial to us. The OUL is there as an option, but it's to deal with the exception rather than the rule.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by tbaldree »

We'll absolutely submit a patch either way.
The programmer in me rebels at submitting something that doesn't just 'work', but our changes are so minor that it probably isn't that big of a deal.
Some of those changes we can submit now ( the ribbon, anim changes ) - and the resource-group changes can wait a little bit until they've had a bit more internal testing.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Looter »

This looks like the perfect game!
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Frenetic
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Frenetic »

How do you get your particle billboards to look so soft without using shaders?
In all the screenshots I've looked at, I don't think I've seen a single billboard clipping into a solid surface where it ruined the illusion of "volumetricity".

eg. http://www.runicgamesfansite.com/galler ... 00m53s.jpg
LoesZaitsev
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Re: Torchlight

Post by LoesZaitsev »

Amazing job guys!

This game looks really cool, and it's really nice it's built on top of open source software (did you hear Bill!????).

Thanks for Diablo.... you own me some days of my life, but it's ok :D

Just got a question, any chance this game would be available to buy and download from your site?, i don't think i'll be able to see it on my country stores.

Thank you, and keep up the hardwork, looking forward to spent a bunch of days on your MMO :).
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Re: Torchlight

Post by anpd »

Ogre is mentioned in Torchlight gamasutra article http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4 ... e_art_.php
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Re: Torchlight

Post by jamesL »

LoesZaitsev wrote:...
Just got a question, any chance this game would be available to buy and download from your site?, i don't think i'll be able to see it on my country stores.
...
Torchlight PAX 2009 Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PD5HJvEUCU

the game is set for release Oct 27, the price is $19.99

they are including the editor that they used to develop the game; a short intro the the editor is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1KMHtAJsY

download the full game for free Oct 27 from runic games's site or perfect world's site
play for a limited number of sessions or time (they haven't decided which yet) then if you enjoy the game go back to either of those web sites, pay the $20 and receive an unlock code that you enter into the game and then you can continue playing where you left off

I don't mean this as an advertisement so I'm sorry if it comes across that way; I'm not associated with runicgames; I just visit their forums and thought I would post this info here
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Kerion »

This game looks amazing, and just proves what Ogre is capable of in the right hands. I'll definitely be putting the 20 bucks down for this when it releases.

You may not be able to answer this, and that's fine, but what scene management are you guys using? Did you write your own, or are you just piggy backing on something like the octree manager?
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Re: Torchlight

Post by tbaldree »

We're just using the vanilla octree manager - ST_INTERIOR scenetype
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Kerion »

Very cool!

I take it your editing tool bakes the octree structure in to your level format file? I saw a little video preview if your editor, and it looked great!
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Re: Torchlight

Post by mtsr »

This game looks amazing! I loved Fate and this looks to be an improvement in every possible way.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by tbaldree »

Nope, we just dump the pieces into staticgeometry after the random layouts have been assembled ( a few different staticgeometries for sorting/shadow reasons - 4 I think ), set the region dimensions to something that is generally pretty balanced for our view ( and based on our tile size ), and toss it in.
banal
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Re: Torchlight

Post by banal »

Ahh. Release Date is approaching. Can't wait ;)
Sorry if it has been asked before, but: Do you plan to release it for other platforms than Windows?
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Re: Torchlight

Post by nikki »

Nice to see the editor! I really like the 'logic graph' editor. I noticed that the logic editor is 'generic' and doesn't have any hardcoded information about the types being scripted, and that the object - editor communication is through a uniform interface.

I have a few questions:-
  • I see that your static level geometry ('rooms') is created by putting premade 'pieces' together. Have you considered modelling the level geometry out of a mesh every time (like 'brushes')? If so, what made you choose the 'pieces' idea?
  • Are each of the room pieces seperate Ogre Entities in real time?
  • Is your editor generic enough for it to be used on a different game without (much) modification? Or does it have much hardcoded information about Torchlight?
I'm gonna buy this game when it's released. Looks fun. :D
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koirat
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Re: Torchlight

Post by koirat »

Your editor looks familiar.
Is it based on Visual Studio SDK ?
Integrating game into editor looks very useful.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by tbaldree »

Ahh. Release Date is approaching. Can't wait
Sorry if it has been asked before, but: Do you plan to release it for other platforms than Windows?
We've got a Mac port in the works -
Your editor looks familiar.
Is it based on Visual Studio SDK ?
Integrating game into editor looks very useful.
The editor is written in C#, and hosts the game as a DLL
And yes, it's VERY useful having your game integrated directly into your editor :)
I see that your static level geometry ('rooms') is created by putting premade 'pieces' together. Have you considered modelling the level geometry out of a mesh every time (like 'brushes')? If so, what made you choose the 'pieces' idea?
We chose pieces because they are extremely easy to quickly build rooms with - and because we are doing a randomized level system, we have to be able to assemble room variants EXTREMELY fast. For some of our fixed areas ( like the town ) we have monolithic chunks of precreated art, but we try to stay away from that. We want modders to be able to add new rooms to the random levels in a matter of minutes. Being able to snap the levels together like legos with the keyboard is not only fast, but honestly, a lot more fun to do - especially when you can immediately try out the level in-editor and see how it feels. Snazzy.
Are each of the room pieces seperate Ogre Entities in real time?
Only while in editing mode - at play time, they are baked into a few staticgeometries with different sorting and projected UV sets.
Is your editor generic enough for it to be used on a different game without (much) modification? Or does it have much hardcoded information about Torchlight?
It's really built to make action-RPGS - and that's about it. Since the editor hosts the game, they're pretty symbiotic. I mean, yes, pieces of it could be used for a different kind of game, but it's assembled very much with this type of game in mind.
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Re: Torchlight

Post by banal »

@tbaldree: Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations.
tbaldree wrote: We've got a Mac port in the works -
Now that's some great news. Will definitely get the Mac version then (if the release delay isn't too big :) ) I guess the editor will be ported to mac as well? Will it run on mono?
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Re: Torchlight

Post by Oogst »

Awesome, this game is looking really good! Congrats!

How did you feel Ogre's tools are in comparison to paid engines? At my company I have been evaluating one commercial engine (I don't think I can mention which one, because I think feature sets are confidential). Anyway, they had some really nice exporting and level editing tools. For example, almost everything is animatable in 3dsmax (like texture scroll, or diffuse colour, or whatever) and Ogre ignores most of that, while that specific engine turned out to have exported everything and shows it correctly in the game. That was really impressive.

So I feel like the difference in tool/exporter quality is the only thing in which Ogre is not an equal to the expensive commercial engines. Especially since the Ogre-engine itself is really good. Since you are using Ogre for a big commercial game and have a lot of professional experience, how do you feel about this?
Frenetic wrote:How do you get your particle billboards to look so soft without using shaders?
In all the screenshots I've looked at, I don't think I've seen a single billboard clipping into a solid surface where it ruined the illusion of "volumetricity".

eg. http://www.runicgamesfansite.com/galler ... 00m53s.jpg
Looking at that screenshot, I actually think I do see some particle clipping through his blade, and all the other particles seem to just be positioned in front of objects, so since there is no intersecting, there is no need to smooth anything. So my guess is that solved it by not making intersections happen that much.
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