What happend with Ogre?

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Thyrion
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:08 pm

Kojack wrote: NeoAxis has just announced that the full engine is now free.

There's still paid licenses, but they give engine source code access. The free version has all the features.
http://www.neoaxis.com/news/neoaxis_3d_ ... fully_free
in detail:
- it's the same as before the last update. You just get the new terrain streaming + physics shape editing(i think) for free.
- full engine source still costs $2800

so still no choice for me (as hobbiest), because u have to wait a half year or longer for bug fixes u cant fix without source.
But a small step in the right direction.
As you know, NeoAxis is a small and independent company. We are developing NeoAxis engine following our own vision and aren't bound to any investor.
who is we? O.o
full time workers?

out of boredom: just made a small calculation for 2 engineer salaries per year (central europe).
2(engineer) * €45k(average)/year = €90k per year = 90k/3k(full source license) = 30 licenses per year.
So neoaxis would need to sell 30 full source licenses per year to pay 2 engineers.

I am still curious if he can live from this engine income alone, or just works on the side.

and come on... now that unreal engine costs 18$ for a month of updates, this just seems not right.

as soon as i pay for an engine i would definitely pick another one. ok i paid already ($18) for unreal source (to peep on it) and editor(to play with it) :P

i am not depressed or want to depress/demotivate someone .. i just say what i see :)

so back to my shitcode and having fun.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:46 pm

Making money in middleware licensing for games is not a great industry to be going into :lol: It's like being in VoIP right as Google Voice and Skype and so on swept in. You can't compete with the big boys.

Although I assume that aside from selling licenses they sell their services. But maybe also other jobs. It really can't be easy.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Herb » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:30 pm

It could just be that Ivan has had too much competition from Unity and others making free versions, that to stay relevant, he's had to go this route. To c6burns point, it's a hard way to make money as a small company. But, I'm sure what keeps Ivan afloat is consulting services. NeoAxis can make things easy to do "if" you want to do something really close to their demos. It can be really hard to deviate into something different due to a lack of documentation or you don't have the source for something lower level that needs to be changed.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by N0vember » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:02 pm

madmarx wrote:Plenty of good stuff in this thread.

Apart from what has been said concerning unity3D and UE4, the reason I went away from Ogre was something else.

Tools were not a problem for me (still, I am extremely happy that OpenGEX gets supported :D very wise). I have written in maxscript a custom exporter/importer for 3dsmax/Ogre and it is good for my students to understand the full production pipeline.

But in my case, the reason I went away from Ogre was this one : I found it too big/bloated, I wanted a rewrite because lot of code was barely maintainable (scenemanager for example), and several things that should have been simple to code were hard to manage (resources for example, manual rendering). I was afraid to recommand it to my students for that reason.

I will of course look and test when Ogre2 is finished. I know that I will get blown away by the demo and things we can do, but if I feel that the code of Ogre2 is still too overconvoluted, I will probably continue with bgfx. bgfx (https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx) is more what I was looking for as a rendering engine. It's probably not for the newbies who wants to make games, though.
Just hopping in on the thread a little late, but I wanted to react to this, as I agree a lot with what you are saying.
Could this line of criticism be an embryo of a roadmap for Ogre 2.1, or Ogre 2.X ? I know some people would like the next steps to be about some even more hardcore next-gen gpu rendering stuff, but my expectations are completely different : I would be more interested in streamlining, simplifying, stripping down everything that can be to get the not only the fastest (as dark-sylinc has been hinting to recently :) ), but the simplest and lightest (mobile-friendly) 3D engine on the market.

A trivial thing that I appreciated in Ogre 2.0 : removing the string names arguments from a lot of createXXX functions removed a lot of unnecessary bloat for me. Who seriously architectures an engine around name indexes anyway ? Further actions like this could be pursued.

I agree that the ressource / files system, from a very naive user of Ogre as myself, seems like a critically cumbersome part. I think a critical step in Ogre future would be to make the ressource system more loosely coupled from the engine, and I have strictly no concrete evidence at all to backup my intuition :) .
I would also like to conditionally strip down parts of Ogre I don't use.

I know a lot of great work has been done on the 2.0 branch, bringing speed and shading to industry speed / quality, and I would love to see Ogre retaining this while becoming a sleeker engine and not going the opposite way and becoming a juggernaut. That's how I see the ideal programming eco-system : as an array of simple and really efficient components rather than big bloated engines.
To name a few examples of libraries I'm using that I have found to satisfy this view : Recast / Detour, NanoVG, Bullet, Sqlite, ZeroMQ

On a different topic, I'm also very interested in what everyone has said about the 'competing' game engines. To me it is clear that an open-source engine could cater to the kind of market these big engines don't : the low-cost market, the indie market, the lone programmer market. An engine that would provide a programmer which wants to retain complete programming freedom, with a set of components and tools, and an simple extendable game object model simplifying the process of coding and editing the game 10fold.

So, something quite different from the Unreal Engine, or NeoAxis. Quite simpler in the end, but in my view, more powerful.

When I see the tools presented with the Unreal Engine, it's impressive, but when you look at the critical parts and forget about next-gen graphics show-off, it's not so incredible. There is a bunch of critical features, put up together, bringing a great modding experience, like the ability to jump in and out of the game, material editing, prefabs / blueprints with dynamic properties and a really clever node-scripting system.
These things aren't impossible for a voluntary (or sponsored) team to implement if you set lower expectations, focus on the essential and forget about a lot of shiny gadgets.

I've been working on a modular engine that I think could benefit the whole community and intend to release it slowly pieces by pieces, as I decided that I'd more realistically earn money from the game itself than yet another middleware. I'm first starting with sharing a lightweight Ui solution (that I presented in showcase). But later, if interests grows and my work proves to be of good quality when it will be confronted to the public needs and expectations (will it actually simple and efficient enough and useful to many people as I hope so ?), then I will continue on and release other parts of the engine that I've been putting together in the last years.

Commercial engines have not killed open-source engines because they never really existed, but Ogre 2.0 and some good-willed souls could bring a change, I believe
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by frostbyte » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:30 pm

That's how I see the ideal programming eco-system : as an array of simple and really efficient components rather than big bloated engines.
that is very much true, if ogre's inside was better structured( user api is very nice... ) then regular human programmers could chip in and contribute stuff...
whats more is that code complexisty burdain self maintability which is one impotant advantage of open-source over commercial...
but i'm quite ignorant about ogre's inside so i can't realy give a true insight on this...
i do know of some rendering libs which are very easy to understand and manipulate and as a result they are more popular and get much more core-contribution from the community, which make it easier on the team to push this libs further faster with less effort...
so yeah, i agree, reducing code complexity and inside code documenting is very important
I'm also very interested in what everyone has said about the 'competing' game engines
with a set of components and tools, and an simple extendable game object model simplifying the process of coding and editing the game 10fold.
it looks like you missed the "ogre is rendering engine" ,"ogre is not a game engine" quotes
however as much is true, i always felt ogre could benefit from a uniform component/entity model acting inside ogre as well as extending outside to other plugins...

btw. you're a bit self conterdicting , first slandering unreal( no reason to, it sets new standarts, which is a good thing )
and then saying community should build somthing like unreal but with much lower expectations...
anyway, i dont see this happning, for by the times you are finished after wasting many years of your life, you'll probably want to make some money out of it...
why not give some love to ogitor instead of reinventing the wheel-over and over, i think it has a chance to become what you want...
good luck...
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by N0vember » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:22 am

frostbyte wrote: btw. you're a bit self conterdicting , first slandering unreal( no reason to, it sets new standarts, which is a good thing ) and then saying community should build somthing like unreal but with much lower expectations...
anyway, i dont see this happning, for by the times you are finished after wasting many years of your life, you will probably want to make some money out of it...why not give some love to ogitor instead of reinventing the wheel-over and over, i think it has a chance to become what you want...
good luck...
You misunderstood the part about making a toolset : I'm not speaking about Ogre, as it is clear that Ogre should and will stay a rendering engine. I'm speaking about an open-source game component + a set of tools, built on top of Ogre.

And I probably wasn't clear in the part about Unity :
I'm not slandering Unreal engine. It's really good but it's not made for programmers like us, it's targeting a different market. However, if an open-source engine like I imagine came to exist, it could reproduce some of the critical features of a good Editor, while removing a lot of non-critical ones that a programmer doesn't especially need, thus lowering the standard and complexity.

And well, I've heard the comment about reinventing the wheel countless times, and while it holds true as a rule of thumb, there are obvious cases where it is not : and that is when the developer clearly knows that what he's developing doesn't exist anywhere on the market.
Example 1 : Ui. You could say that writing an Ui lib is reinventing the wheel, as there are a few already. Except all of them fail at critical points. The only way to render something resembling an HTML layout on top of Ogre is to embed a whole browser in your game. Do you realize how much code that is, compared to Ogre's codebase ? Talk about light libraries here....
Example 2 : Game engine. Well there are virtually none. So I'm not reinventing anyone's wheel here.

Why not give some love to Ogitor ? Well it's far removed from anything close to a game engine. No really what I am after :
1. It's built strictly around Ogre. So its object model is the one of Ogre, which is a rendering engine, not a game engine. So you basically get an editor which only allows you to edit the graphical representation of your game and is completely separated from any game logic. It's really naive to me to think that it could be used in a realistic game production environment, even an Indie one. How many games were actually shipped using Ogitor as the level editor ?
2. It's a Scene Editor. Which means it's based around the concept of a Scene. Again, a concept that is from Ogre, the rendering engine. So If you are creating a game doesn't expect anything close to a "Scene", like for example, an open-world, or a procedurally generated world, then the whole basis of Ogitor is moot. It's consequently completely tied to the .scene format.
3. It is based on Qt. Qt is the most obvious example of what an overly complicated and bloated framework is. I tried writing a real application with Qt during a few months. I'm never gonna repeat that mistake again.
So, in the end, if you want to add the features of a game engine to Ogitor, well you are essentially rewriting everything from scratch. I would never have the time to dig in Ogitor and repurpose it to fit my needs. It would be longer than what I am doing.

And lastly, don't worry, I'm not wasting any years of my life. My highest priority has always been not waste time. And after trying a lot of options and seeing how much time a programmer loses by trying to fit in a coercitive framework, that's precisely what drove me to write the fastest prototyping tool I could get : my own. Except others may benefit from it, when it will go public. The engine already works for what I need it to do, I just don't have really fleshed out tools now (partly due to working on that Ui thing).
And since I'm already making a game with it, I'm not frustrated at all with choosing that path. The money, well it'll have to come from the game.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by frostbyte » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:10 am

well, i guess that your observations on ogitor are correct( unfortunately qt was popular choise back then )
as a scene editor, its quite nice and friendly...but yeah, i digged in the codes, at first look, it seem to be well arranged, modular and all...
but when you dig deeper, you discover that its modular, but pyramid shaped - meaning that if you want to use it you have to go ogitor all the way...( at least qt module is well separated, so you can dump qt ) , so not very suitable for games i assume...
any way what you say is true, there are open-source game engines out there, but none of them comes with good tools,
there must be a reason for that , maybe we just don't see it...
all games have "game engines" behind them, some develop there own little tools, if all this effort would go in one place then you could have the "linux" equivalent of unity/unreal, but this code-utopia does'nt happen as often as we wish, it seems every one like his way of doing stuff( as much as you do... )
most successful open-source projects( ones to compete in commercial market ) have huge companies driving them behind the scenes....
anyway the only way to make dreams real is by trying, so i'm not gonna discourage you, just wanted to make sure you know what you are facing...
it's a BIG project...
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:03 am

N0vember wrote:I don't like qt and Ogitor isn't a runtime game engine
Short version :lol:
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:42 pm

N0vember wrote:much text
I think about the same as you. The chargeable engine market is dominated by Unity3D and now UE4. There you won't make a cent "profit" (maybe you just get some investment back).
The interesting part is, that you want to opensource your engine?
Because i plan the same, maybe we could peep in each others source and look, if we have nearly the same ideas/plans in head (just pm me, if interested) :).
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by N0vember » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:31 pm

c6burns wrote:
N0vember wrote:I don't like qt and Ogitor isn't a runtime game engine
Short version :lol:
Haha yeah okay, but that's not fair, I wouldn't even have mentioned Ogitor if frostbyte didn't ask me about it and why I rolled my own instead.
Thyrion wrote: I think about the same as you. The chargeable engine market is dominated by Unity3D and now UE4. There you won't make a cent "profit" (maybe you just get some investment back).
The interesting part is, that you want to opensource your engine?
Because i plan the same, maybe we could peep in each others source and look, if we have nearly the same ideas/plans in head (just pm me, if interested) :).
Yeah open-source is the only way to go. I understand the only way one could ever profit from a small-scale alternative would be by crowdfunding it. And that can happen only when you showed something.
I will setup a github repo soon, first just for the Ui and then for the rest, so of course you'll be able to peep. I can explain it roughly via PM though, in the meantime.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by frostbyte » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:28 pm

Haha yeah okay, but that's not fair, I wouldn't even have mentioned Ogitor if frostbyte didn't ask me about it and why I rolled my own instead.
haha*2 = i would'nt have mentioned ogitor if c6burns wouldn't try to convince us that ogitor is the way to go...http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 75#p511634...and yes, i'm qt allergic...

anyway, i just downloaded( slooowww.... ) and tried skyline beta """free""" edition( at least you dont need to register )
it practically looks like ogitor on steroids...i must say i did'nt like it much...its not for developers...feels like a toy( mainly for standart fps style games... )

funny enough i was about to suggest you team up with thyrion, but Collective consciousness beat me to it( again... )
guess what needs to happen...happens... 8)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by frostbyte » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:48 pm

Collective consciousness is playing tricks... http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=82670
so maybe ogitor is becoming relevant again as base for community game engine...?
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:35 pm

N0vember wrote:Haha yeah okay, but that's not fair, I wouldn't even have mentioned Ogitor if frostbyte didn't ask me about it and why I rolled my own instead.
Haha I'm just teasin, dude no worries :)

qt is complex but I don't think it's needlessly so. Ogitor is somewhat complex, but I don't think it's needlessly so. I use Ogitor for my project and I have some custom UI stuff and some custom editors I added for the task. Took me about 2 work days to make the adjustments I needed (customized terrain export options, some other terrain tweaks, simple physics testing via an angelscript, and a few other nuts and bolts). If Ogitor doesn't work for you, or you just don't like it ... totally fine :)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by N0vember » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:47 pm

frostbyte wrote:Collective consciousness is playing tricks... http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=82670
so maybe ogitor is becoming relevant again as base for community game engine...?
Yeah, collective consciousness is scary sometimes :)
Thyrion wrote: The interesting part is, that you want to opensource your engine?
Because i plan the same, maybe we could peep in each others source and look, if we have nearly the same ideas/plans in head (just pm me, if interested) :).
In all this fever I'm strongly thinking about releasing my source, but I setup all my projects in Visual Studio and there are some absolute paths in the dependencies. I'm a complete noob at sharing code, I never wrote a makefile. So trying to build that will be the most cumbersome task ever. I don't want to release something no one will ever build because it's not prepared, and only peek at the code. Would someone like to team with me for that part ?
There are quite a few dependencies... sqlite, Ogre, Bullet, Recast/Detour, OpenAL, libogg, libvorbisfile. And quite a few projects, at least 6. I have no idea how complicated it's to prepare a build system for such a project and how much time it'll take.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by jacmoe » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:34 pm

You'll be surprised to learn how the community can fix that in a cinch. :)
It wasn't a huge task to rewrite all of Ogitors VS projects to CMake, so I guess it shouldn't be a problem with yours.
One of the benefits of open sourcing something is that you don't have to do that job yourself.
Kind of like out-sourcing.. ;)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by N0vember » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:09 pm

That's what I was secretly hoping for. Even though writing makefiles is something I should confront myself to one day or the other.
I'm gonna start with the Ui, Sound libraries and see if anyone manage to build these.
I'll try to iron out the last critical bugs in the rest, meanwhile
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by jacmoe » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:57 pm

We chose to use CMake for two very important reasons: Ogre is using it, and trying to develop with Qt without using CMake is just asking for trouble. :)
Since the KDE project has been using CMake and Qt for years and years, CMake has excellent support for Qt.

You are free to steal and plunder CMake scripts from Ogitor and Ogre - that should give you a headstart (hopefully).
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by stealth977 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:54 pm

I just wanted to say a few words about the old Ogitor :

Your points are all spot on, we as the Ogitor Team have discussed this many times in our private forums. When we started coding Ogitor, our aim was simple, to create an Editor that can design OGRE SCENES. But in the process, we desired to add more functionality to it and at some point I realized that further improvements were a waste of time for a tool whose sole aim is only to design a visual scene. At that point I started experimenting with what could be done to change Ogitor, so that it can become more than a visual scene editor. The result is OGF (Ogitor Game Framework)

So, the design goal of Ogitor v2 (just an alias not final name) is to keep using Ogitor as the Editor (by keeping I actually mean the replacement will still be named Ogitor, will have similar look, functionality and features) but to change its Engine (previous engine was Ogitors.dll) to OGF.

OGF being a game engine, new Ogitor will drive it and manipulate it to create your scenes (an open world is a scene too, though a big scene itself, or we could call it a game level, or the sole big level like in an open world). What new OGitor will be doing different is that once you create your level, you will be able to launch OGF in your own application and let it load and RUN the scene just like any game engine does...

Thyrion asked in another thread "I am curious, if this makes the use of the ogitor source easier or harder (threading can be the source of long debug sessions (realy needed for an editor?)) ..." and that is the answer, it is OGF that makes use of threading not the Ogitor (Editor), and OGF does need since its a game engine and of course Ogitor will be benefited as well since it will ru much much faster than before...

Anyway, Ogitor v2 is a work in progress, only the core is there yet, too many things to do before we can actually release something to play with :D
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by jacmoe » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:44 am

So, back to topic: ogre3d forum is not the only place which has been pestilenced by silence -> http://forum.devmaster.net/t/programmin ... sion/25460
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by jacmoe » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:45 am

And Dr.Dobbs Journal has closed down: http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and ... /240169421
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:41 pm

mood, like a cemetery here :)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by insider » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:43 pm

betajaen wrote:Your correct Lannister.
:lol:
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:19 pm

3 clicks per day and you've read all new posts :shock:
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by insider » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:54 pm

Thyrion wrote:3 clicks per day and you've read all new posts :shock:
I visit Ogre Forums everyday more often than I use Google. :D
I just don't have the habit of signing on and browsing. :)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:31 pm

Yeah, unfortunately the forum isn't as active as it used to be.
Maybe everybody is so busy getting on with using Ogre in amazing ways they don't have time to chat on here... :)

It's getting harder to justify to people why they should go with Ogre instead of Unity or UE4. I think things are going to be slow here until we have Ogre 2.x branch fully fleshed out and we can start showing it off as a competitive renderer instead of "it's awesome but if you want A, B, C or D then you'll need to wait".

I just read that Dead Linger, a former Ogre game that moved to Unity, is now moving from Unity to UE4. So I guess not everything is idyllic in the closed source engine world. :)
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