What happend with Ogre?

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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:08 am

Epic did just launch those unreal game dev grants. That's actually making me consider UE4 for my next title where I never would have previously. I've always liked Unity.

For me it's all about tools. Tools tools tools. It's my least favorite type of work to do and you will likely end up doing a lot of it by choosing Ogre ... depends on your project though of course. Smaller projects or certain types of projects don't need as much work on tools. The Ogitor team back on the case is a real treat to see! I love it and I have done a bunch of work with it to tailor it to level design in my game ... but the gap between it and something commercial like Unity's editor is just insane. The Ogitor team just can't be expected to compare with that. It's 3-4 people vs 300-400 people on some of these middleware teams ... and those people get paid for it :lol:
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:18 am

Or just use the Unity editor with Ogre. Some of my students did that. They wrote an exporter to turn Unity scenes and meshes into Ogre format. :)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:39 am

Totally there's a lot you could do and export out of their editor, and I've done some exporter tinkering to pull assets from the store out into 3ds Max, but what about features like mechanim? I just have no interest in building my own crappier animation graph over the course of X months. There's no non commercial product that really even comes close to their animation graph. The middleware license would undercut the amount of salary I'd earn by such a huge margin ... and really therein lies the crux of the issue. If your time is worth nothing or you have no money (we've all started in that spot! no shame), then spending time on your own tools is fine. It might even be awesome! Perhaps even other factors could come into play ... like you derive value from the process for other reasons than a mere means-to-an-end, eg. contributing to a community, learning experiences, love of low level code and mechanics, love of tools work. The cost vs benefit is very clear for me. Plus porting this renderer to all the consoles I could target from a middleware package ... another huge shwack of work for which a license would undercut my salary

Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with Ogre in my current project. It is simply a jewel of a project (and community!), just I can really empathize with people who move on to commercial middleware, since that is quite likely what will happen to me later this year.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:55 am

damn epic ruined the ogre community ....
i think i will try my luck with unreal, too.
Currently the forum activity (excpect the one man army named dark sylinc)seems to be dead, for me. :cry:
without more people supporting ogre, dark times will come for ogre (or already there).
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by jacmoe » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:08 pm

On one hand I am happy that we don't have to deal with all those help-vampiric newbs, but I really miss the buzzingly active group of skilled Ogre users which never ceased to amaze me.

However, the start of the year has always been a very, very quiet period of time.

If it's any consolation, it's the same all over. It is a first for me that I can actually read almost every single post on Gamedev.net forum. ;)

What we should end up with is a dedicated group of people who appreciate Ogre for what it really is.
And not wanting it to be hand-holding, full-stack game engine, or whatever it isn't.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by al2950 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:15 pm

jacmoe wrote: We we should end up with is a dedicated group of people who appreciate Ogre for what it really is.
And not wanting it to be hand-holding, full-stack game engine, or whatever it isn't.
:D
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by shadowfeign » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:57 pm

I think that's the biggest part of the forum silence. Veteran users don't end up asking as many questions so the forum seems quiet without the small newbie questions. Also I think the reason threads like what game are you playing are popular. There are people using ogre, they just don't have any new questions that can't be answered with a forum search.
I just read that Dead Linger, a former Ogre game that moved to Unity, is now moving from Unity to UE4. So I guess not everything is idyllic in the closed source engine world. :)
is that really a statement of quality on any of the engines though? or is it a matter of the grass is greener type thing? Sometimes you need to change a library here or there, but eventually you just have to stick with something.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by NotCamelCase » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:48 pm

shadowfeign wrote:I think that's the biggest part of the forum silence. Veteran users don't end up asking as many questions so the forum seems quiet without the small newbie questions. Also I think the reason threads like what game are you playing are popular. There are people using ogre, they just don't have any new questions that can't be answered with a forum search.
I think that's one good point. I started using Ogre3D from scratch to create a small project of ~15k LoC and I've asked max. 10 questions here and there within a year. The community and project is pretty mature so you can handle a lot of things without posting questions nowadays. There were even a few pretty great Greenlit projects whose authors posted like 10 times in 5 years :D
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lingfors » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:53 pm

I'm waiting for dark_sylinc to finish Ogre 2.1, so he can start writing tutorials for how to properly use it. ;)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:03 pm

lingfors wrote:I'm waiting for dark_sylinc to finish Ogre 2.1, so he can start writing tutorials for how to properly use it. ;)
isn't it the wrong attitude, just waiting for someone else doing the job? I'm sure he could need a helping hand :P
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:07 pm

I've just seen:
https://github.com/andr3wmac/Torque6

- global illumination : http://forums.torque3d.org/viewtopic.ph ... 2823#p2819
-terrain editor
- pbs material editor

Based on bgfx.
startet in 2014 ....

maybe ogre3d should have used bgfx too, to save a lot of work.
explanation why ogre didn't use bgfx:
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... fx#p516148
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by al2950 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:32 pm

Thyrion wrote:I've just seen:
https://github.com/andr3wmac/Torque6

- global illumination : http://forums.torque3d.org/viewtopic.ph ... 2823#p2819
-terrain editor
- pbs material editor

Based on bgfx.
startet in 2014 ....

maybe ogre3d should have used bgfx too, to save a lot of work.
explanation why ogre didn't use bgfx:
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... fx#p516148
This has been mentioned before, see this forum;
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=82991
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by mkultra333 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:26 pm

Haven't read the whole thread, haven't been around in a while.

For me, Ogre was a last resort. I'd been waiting for years for a decent game engine, and there were none, they were all garbage. That was when I decided to take up Ogre 1.6 and write my own. Ye Gods, what a horror, building an engine from scratch, but there seemed no other choice. And here I am now, a million years later, and still not finished. Admittedly, last 2.5 years I've had hardly any time.

But now with the new Unreal and Unity engines available, it would be insane for a new indie programmer to start an engine from scratch with Ogre. It would make no sense at all. If their idea was utterly crazy and just didn't fit into the Unreal or Unity framework, it STILL wouldn't make sense because programming an engine is SO SLOW. The smart thing would be to change the crazy idea until it did fit into Unreal or Unity.

The other thing is that I just find Ogre very confusing now, and I'm a regular user, I can't imagine what a new person thinks. Do they use 1.9 (the last official release) that is incredibly outdated, 1.10 which at least has a proper attempt at DX11 but is in a state of flux and sort of treated like the unwanted Ogre step-child, 2.0 which is... I don't know... or 2.1 which is bleeding edge, incomplete, and no where near ready for prime time?

And there's the horrible feeling I have that most of the really neat tricks I learnt up to Ogre 1.8 is now useless in the 2.0+ releases, since RTT seems (at a glance) to have been virtually removed. I feel like if I even tried to use 2.0+, I'll be constantly rapped over the knuckles by a stern Nun screaming "Don't do shadows like that! Don't do RTT like that! You are BAD!" I have always hated compositors, compositor scripts and Ogre's inbuilt shadows (with a passion) and easily did things my own way in my own code (including a full blown, very fast shadow atlas method in 1.8 ), but now I get the feeling it's Ogre's way or the highway. Perhaps I'm wrong, and the 2.0+ Ogre techniques aren't nearly as alien as they initially appear. But the RTT changes really put me off.

Five or so months from now I intend to make a last ditch effort to actually finish my project. I'm going to try and take a year off and just concentrate on programming, since I've done so much already. If Ogre 1.8 with DX9 runs ok on Windows 10, I'll go with that. If not, I'll move to 1.10 and update to DX11. But beyond that, next project, I imagine I'll probably use something like Unity or Unreal.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:35 pm

mkultra333 wrote:since RTT seems (at a glance) to have been virtually removed.
Render textures are still there. You make them exactly the same way.
How they are used has changed slightly, but it's still the same basic principle.
In Ogre 1.x, you attach a camera to a render target (texture/window) to get a viewport.
In Ogre 2.1, you attach a camera and a render target to the compositor to get a workspace.
Both still let you define viewport coordinates on a render target.
I don't see any real practical difference in how they are used (but I don't really use them that often, so maybe functionality you needed has changed).
mkultra333 wrote:I feel like if I even tried to use 2.0+, I'll be constantly rapped over the knuckles by a stern Nun screaming "Don't do shadows like that! Don't do RTT like that! You are BAD!"
Which is far worse in Unity (at least they no longer charge money for RTT).
mkultra333 wrote:I have always hated compositors, compositor scripts
On the surface you might not like Ogre 2.1 then since the compositor is no longer optional. But it's not the same as the old style.
The new compositor is a very different system that sits in the hierarchy in a different way.
mkultra333 wrote:If Ogre 1.8 with DX9 runs ok on Windows 10, I'll go with that.
Not sure about 1.8 (haven't used that for many years), but Ogre with dx9 works fine in windows 10. In fact, my asteroids game test from 2004 using Ogre 0.13 and DX9 still runs fine in windows 10 (2200+ fps). :)


Admittedly, many aspects of Ogre 2.1 still confuse me. But that's mainly because I really haven't gotten to use it seriously. All the student projects I help with now have (sadly) moved to Unity. Most of my own personal Ogre usage doesn't require high performance, so I've been sticking with 1.10.
But I've now ported (well, started, much to still do) my KAGE framework to 2.1, so it's where I'll do all my stuff (experimenting, game data reverse engineering, etc) from now on.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by mkultra333 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:02 pm

Maybe I shouldn't judge until I try to use it. Just that every time I look at any documentation for 2.0+ it confuses me. Also, things like this from the 2.0 porting manual:
Advanced users are probably used to low level manipulation of RenderTargets. As such they're used to
setting up their custom Viewports and calling RenderTarget::update.
That is too low level. Instead, users are now encouraged to setup Compositor nodes and multiple
workspaces to perform rendering to multiple RTs, even if it's for your own custom stuff . The new
Compositor is much more flexible than the old one (which has been removed).
I put the bold on "That is too low level." I've spent a long time tweaking, experimenting, and generally working on my render chain. Lots of effects, all kinds of different deferred shading shadow and light and projection effects, shadow atlas, warping through glass, and post processing. I love the customization that low level, finely controlled RTT brings. So to be casually told "That is too low level" and told to use compositors really grates on my nerves and puts me off. Like I'm being forced into someone else's vision of how I'm supposed to do things.

Does DX11 not have RTT? If it does, why am I not allowed to access it? RTT seems like a fairly common methodology for DirectX and OpenGl. Has that changed? If it hasn't, why is Ogre being weird and making up its own thing? I don't understand, maybe I missed the explanation for this.

Like I said, I could be totally wrong about this, since I haven't used 2.0+ yet, but the documentation looks worrying for someone like me. If it turns out you can pretty much do exactly the old type of RTT in code, just with different words, that'd be fine.

And I get that I'll have even less control over rendering in Unity or Unreal. But if I'm having control taken away from me anyway, I may as well just give up on customized, low level control and go with whatever offers the most other features.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by al2950 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:22 pm

@mkultra333

I would suggest you are not the average user :P. Also one might argue if you want to operate at that level why do you need Ogre. However it should be made clear that from a low level point of view in the context of generating custom effects Ogre 2.x is more customisable than 1.x. The main render loop in Ogre 1.x had become a bit of a mess in my opinion to the point that shadows never really worked properly, at least not for me!

I appreciate your frustration at the lack of 2.x documentation and wiki entries, and I think its something we should tackle fairly soon. I think I am up to speed with most areas if 2.x so I should really contribute in that area, but like everyone else documentation always seems to drift to the bottom of the todo list :oops:

**EDIT** FYI the new compositor has almost nothing to do with the new compositor, to the point I think we should re-name it! The new compositor is a really nice way to view/design your rendering pipeline.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by mkultra333 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:31 pm

I'm not really frustrated with 2.0+, since I haven't used it yet. I'd say I'm more scared of it, and scared that it can't do what I could do in 1.x. But that just might be ignorance on my part.
Also one might argue if you want to operate at that level why do you need Ogre.
Because Ogre does a million things that I love, that I'd never have time to get done on my own. Resource management is a big one. Dealing with all the edge cases and quirks of DirectX or OpenGl that would have utterly confounded me, that's another. And of course the biggie, the potential to go cross platform. Sure, I'm on Windows and DX9 now, but Ogre means the work needed to go to Linux and OpenGl is a fraction of what it would be otherwise. Abstracting and generalizing ideas like surface creation, mesh creation, and dare I say it, RTT. :)

I always felt those things were what Ogre should really concentrate on. Leave stuff like deferred or forward shading, shadows and post processing for the user to figure out, or provide a couple of example classes for these things that the user can then customize and build off.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:02 pm

If you made already an engine by yourself, i think you will always dislike a lot of things in other engines.
- unity3d no source access
- UE4 > just a big fad monster!
The indies are flooding the game market with shitty, laggy UE4 games. As a single developer you cant stand out of this mass!
- as long as the Ogre3d team is arround ... (oh sorry i meant matias! I don't know another active ogre team member) i'll stick with ogre3d 2.1.

He's doing a great job with 2.1! keep it up! :)

The only thing i'm currently missing, are more active members and eyecandys (something like this: http://i.imgur.com/br8KV2Q.png)!
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by mkultra333 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:29 am

Ok, I'll lay off the Ogre 2.0+ bashing until I (eventually) give it a go. But my fear of losing too much low level control of the render chain is real.

That still leaves this particular issue I mentioned earlier unaddressed:
The other thing is that I just find Ogre very confusing now, and I'm a regular user, I can't imagine what a new person thinks. Do they use 1.9 (the last official release) that is incredibly outdated, 1.10 which at least has a proper attempt at DX11 but is in a state of flux and sort of treated like the unwanted Ogre step-child, 2.0 which is... I don't know... or 2.1 which is bleeding edge, incomplete, and no where near ready for prime time?
I really don't understand what a new user is expected to make of this, and doesn't help Ogre adoption.

What is the purpose of Ogre 2.0? I get the feeling it's supposed to be just a stepping stone for people who want to move from 1.x to 2.1, but that makes it pretty unappealing given that 2.1 is so experimental. Is 2.0 actively developed? Is it up to the task of making an indie game? Will it get a full release at some point?

If someone was starting an indie game tomorrow, and decided they wanted to use Ogre, which Ogre would they use?
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:13 am

The versioning is a little confusing. But it's hard to avoid, since the 2.x series is a long term project.

Which to use? Ogre 1.10 for old compatibility (better chance of addons working, and it's the ogre we all understand), 2.1 for bleeding edge which may not have everything yet (but matias is a crazy workaholic, he's done so much already) but runs much faster.

To quote matias:
The 2.0 branch sits in the middle between 1.10 and 2.1. It's only a good branch for exclusively doing the following:

- Porting to 2.1 from 1.x branches in small increments because it is still very similar to 1.10. The biggest change is the Compositor. Porting to 2.0 first lets you test whether you're in good track, check the compositor code, the small scene management differences, before moving on to the greater change that are introduced with 2.1.
- You're close to finishing your product and you're having trouble with performance. Ogre 2.0 is much faster at frustum culling and updating the SceneNodes, also has a smaller memory footprint for Entities and Nodes. If you're having performance issues in those areas, Ogre 2.0 is great to get a speed boost.
mkultra333 wrote:Is 2.0 actively developed? Is it up to the task of making an indie game? Will it get a full release at some point?
2.0 isn't really actively developed as such (from what I understand). It gets merges of bug fixes from the 1.10 branch at regular intervals, but otherwise development takes place in the 2.1 (matias) and 1.10 (other devs) branches.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by mkultra333 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:31 am

Good info, thanks Kojack.

If you look at this from a potential new user perspective, and you go to the download page, http://www.ogre3d.org/download, you're offered 1.9.0 with a release date of 22 November 2013. I'm guessing that's got to put people off. If I were to see this with no other knowledge, I'd think Ogre was dead. That combined with the low forum activity is not a good look.

The info on http://www.ogre3d.org/download/source isn't really any better, since it's mostly about even older releases plus some links to BitBucket. Nothing about 1.10, 2.0 or 2.1. Nothing on the "About" page either. There's really nothing to inform new potential users about any of the work of the last 2 years. I know 1.10 and 2.0 are never going to get a proper release, and 2.1 is still pretty far from an RC. So unless a potential user scours the forum, they're totally in the dark.

(There is the Ogre progress reports, but they aren't that informative and can be easily missed. And there hasn't been a new one in 6 months.)

Maybe some info on the main Ogre pages that sums up your post above would be useful.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by dark_sylinc » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:53 pm

What a heated up discussion. I'll chime in.
mkultra333 wrote:2.1 which is bleeding edge, incomplete, and no where near ready for prime time?
Actually quite the opposite. Despite whatever impression you may have, some users are already using it in production, and we (as in the team I'm working with) are using it heavily in production.
It works, it's fast, it's reliable.

@mkultra333 in particular (but maybe useful for others too):
As al2950 said, you're certainly not the average user. The compositor lets you do almost any effect you could imagine.
If you want the kind of low level you want; the compositor lets you do this via the Workspace listener and/or custom compositor passes. Additionally, you can treat workspaces like you used to treat RTTs (i.e. you now associate an RTT to a workspace, then call workspace->_update(); whereas in 1.x you would create a viewport from an RTT, then call rtt->_update() )
Custom compositor passes let you control the rendering with C++ in a level much lower than 1.x ever did.
I always felt those things were what Ogre should really concentrate on. Leave stuff like deferred or forward shading, shadows and post processing for the user to figure out, or provide a couple of example classes for these things that the user can then customize and build off.
The average user certainly feels otherwise. Programming your own shaders and BRDFs is too overwhelming for most people. They actually want to focus on making an actual game/simulation/medical software.
The new Hlms material system aims at solving exactly that.

But the Hlms also lets you plug in your own implementation if you want to. You can do like xrgo did and heavily customize the implementations we provide to suite his needs. Or you can do like white_waluigi, who is writing his own deferred renderer using its own Hlms implementation.
Kinslore also has researched into the custom Hlms realm, and has provided lots of introductions to it in the 2.0+ subforum.

In my own project I have two extra Hlms implementations, one that renders atmospheric scattering effects, another that renders volumetric ones (no, sadly I cannot share this with the community). Such is the power of the Hlms.

Using the Hlms "as is" provides the average user a magic black box that deals with their materials applied to meshes and scenes automatically, living in that nice world/illusion we protect our users from (like Unity and UE4 do with their own material systems).
Users who want to go deeper, can get their hands dirty and write their own Hlms implementations. Some users have complained writing Hlms is hard. It can be overwhelming at first, at least until "it ticks" inside your head. It gives you incredible power that comes with great responsibility.
The Hlms is a system designed for modern GPUs in mind. It works so great and so fast because of this fact. But it can be difficult to grasp at first; and it is extremely different to how "Materials" worked in 1.x. There are no "constant parameters" in the DX9 sense.
If you're going to get your hands dirty, don't complain the mud is not to your taste.

@not to anyone in particular:
The website thing is indeed a problem. It's an old Wordpress template with lots of old information accumulated. Unfortunately I barely know the site's structure on the server side of things.
TBH it would be easier for me to come up with a minimalist (also more eye candy) website that points up to the most recent information, a small news/blogpost section, and a link to the old website as an "archive".

As for the SDK download:
This is one of the things I haven't put my hands to work on. I despise the old "SDK" model where a CMake scripts copies the libs and headers to a separate folder just for the sake of altering the project structure unnecessarily. Users who want to switch from the SDK to their own built-from-source often find trouble, and devs who want to alter the Ogre source code (included myself) need to run the "install" CMake command after compiling so that the SDK structure gets updated.

I find much more useful a CMake script like the one in OgreMeshy where OGRE_SOURCE points to Ogre's source code, and OGRE_BINARIES points to where CMake created the binaries.

However I don't know if this approach works in OS X/iOS/Android. It certainly does on Linux and Windows.
This way both the SDK and regular source code project structures would match 100%; making things smoother for everyone.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by xrgo » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:40 pm

dark_sylinc wrote:some users are already using it in production
It works, it's fast, it's reliable.
I can confirm that, we are doing simulators (I'll soon be posting screenshots and stuffs) and we already have a product on the market, being used by costumers, very stable, good looking... using Ogre 2.1 :D thanks matias <3
In my experience porting to 2.1 worth all the effort, and its not that hard, there's no much examples and Docs, and the porting guide its a little overwhelming at first, but you can always ask in the forums =)

I agree one of the main problems is the site, we need some serious revamping: site, logo, some more eye-candy examples, sinbad mascot using pbs!, and 100% 2.1 compatible docs and examples! hail 2.1! a new reborn!
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Thyrion
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Location: germany

Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:46 pm

dark_sylinc wrote: In my own project I have two extra Hlms implementations, one that renders atmospheric scattering effects, another that renders volumetric ones (no, sadly I cannot share this with the community). Such is the power of the Hlms.
Screenshots or it didn't happen. :twisted:
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madmarx
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by madmarx » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:57 pm

Hi there friends!

I was the same kind of user than mkultra33. Well I admit I don't use, nor teach Ogre3D anymore. I have not try seriously the latest developments. I teach 3D maths through software implementation, and the rest with Unity3D, to be like the others. I admit I am less interested in Ogre, since I do more robotics & stuff. That is the main reason I don't use it now. Therefore I really can't say anything wrong on 2.x. I am happy there is a leader, and that he gets things done.
I despise the old "SDK" model where a CMake scripts copies the libs and headers to a separate folder just for the sake of altering the project structure unnecessarily.
Haha, I remember thinking the same. Since I don't use Ogre3D anymore, I don't care so much now, but do as you wish!

3 days ago, one of my coworkers of my age was killed in Bataclan, Paris. I did not knew him very well. But this made me think I could be dead anyday, I prefer to tell this right know :
- I don't care for Ogre3D now. But I care for you guys, you are the great people. I met IRL Klaim. He is just a great guy too. (I'd be honored to meet Kojack, but I don't see that happening in the near future, and internet is still here).

So maybe that is what happened with Ogre too. It has become more a community?

Best regards,

Pierre
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Tutorials + Ogre searchable API + more for Ogre1.7 : http://sourceforge.net/projects/so3dtools/
Corresponding thread : http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 93&start=0

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