What happend with Ogre?

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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:14 pm

However visual attractiveness can only overcome C++ to a certain degree. :)

I love C++, been coding in it for around 20 years. I also don't really like C# (having to say new on every damn variable is so annoying!). But C# is a much easier language for beginners. The basic syntax is the same for most of the language, but the lack of includes, discouraging of pointers, garbage collection, near instant build times and usually better IDE parsing support (Visual Studio in particular has had better support for C# in the IDE, plus things like intellitrace debugging) makes it better to start with.
Unity puts the reflective nature of it to very good use with its inspector and attributes.

With better C# support in Ogre, we might be able to steal away some of their audience who don't want to learn C++ but don't like the limits of Unity.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by EricB » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:45 pm

spookyboo wrote: A real problem is that Ogre lacks in the tool and art department. Yes, there are a few good applications/games that are based on Ogre, but overall it still takes a lot of effort to develop the application you want.
This is exactly what I think is hurting Ogre in the grand scheme of things.

Ogre isn't a game engine. But for the most part, nearly everyone I've ever talked to is using it for video games.
Due to name recognition, Unity and Unreal will suck off the nooblars who do nothing but create noise. And that is fine. We don't need those people because they don't create anything. The real problem is exactly what Spookyboo pointed out.

My game was released in EarlyAccess this year. (And its' doing well! Thanks to everyone who bought it! :) ) Using Ogre, my little tycoon game with very little 3d (although there is 3d) will have taken 5 years to complete. 4 of which was full time work (Around 60-100hr a week.) Because Ogre, for better or worse, continues to stick with the "Tools/Exporters should be made by 3rd parties", "There should be no official GUI", mind set, my game took a year or two longer than it would have if I used something like C4.

Because exporting meshes was a pain in the ass or expensive until Easy Ogre Exporter came out, I lost 2 damn good, free, artist. Thank god for EOE, or I would of given up on finishing the game, and would have continued working in a dead-end retail job until I blew my brains out. But still, between v1.4 and v1.8 the only option for export of meshes from 3dsm cost $800 per license. That's a lot of money. I could have paid for 3 copies of c4 engine and get that functionality out of the box...

Even with the awesomeness of EOE, my artist still has trouble, and I find my self editing files by hand. Hopefully I never subcontract work to someone who uses maya, because I have no idea what I would do then.

That aside, because of the ease to make games in other engines now days, I have increased competition, even in my niche. My game looks like crap compared to other car games because someone using unity can generate awesome car paint shaders with a click of a mouse, where as I have to fight rtss, assuming I'm lucky enough to not have to write the shader my self...


So this is maybe a little bit of a rant post. I understand Ogre is a rendering engine. But in my 5 years, I had a hell of a time making good use of its rendering abilities productively. I'm really glad Ogre doesn't have physics or sound integrated into it. But that's no excuse to not have a drag-and-drop shader editor, official working model exporters, and possibly (debatable) an official GUI with ~finished~ set of tools.

It is art and third parties tools that has made me seriously consider other options after I finish my current project and start the next project. C4 is on top of my list because it's cross-platform and straight up C++. I assume the modern wave of smooth chin programmers look at ease of use (both in language and in tools) and don't even consider Ogre.

And yes, I could write my own tools to do these things. But that defeats the purpose of using the lib in the first place. If I wanted to write my own basic functionality tools, I would write my own specific api. That way I would have a narrower focus and more efficient toolset.


Sorry for the rant, but that's my take on the state of Ogre3d pre-2.0
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:28 am

The problem is Unity has a huge team of full time PAID developers and their livelihood depends on beating the competition.
Ogre has a few volunteers working for free in their spare time. It's hard to find people who can devote the time to these things when they aren't earning a full time wage. We can't really have team members dedicated to guis and exporters and editors when there's barely enough to work on the engine itself.

NeoAxis can do it because they charge money. It's a business, not a hobby.
bronzebeard wrote: But still, between v1.4 and v1.8 the only option for export of meshes from 3dsm cost $800 per license. That's a lot of money. I could have paid for 3 copies of c4 engine and get that functionality out of the box...
I've never seen OgreMax cost more than $250. Unless you are talking about Ofusion, but that died out years ago (last update looks like 7 years ago). Then again, Max is $5775 per license, plus $4045 every year to upgrade to the latest version. Maya is the same. You can buy 20 copies of OgreMax for the cost of a single Max license.

Focusing on a high quality FBX converter would be a good option. Max and Maya both use FBX for interchange. Unity uses FBX as its main import format (despite what it might appear, Unity can't load Max or Maya files directly, it really opens Max in the background and does an auto export to FBX). The FBX sdk is also free (don't need the Ogre team to pay tens of thousands of dollars to support autodesk products). It even supports collada and obj formats as a bonus.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by EricB » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:36 am

Kojack wrote:It's hard to find people who can devote the time to these things when they aren't earning a full time wage. We can't really have team members dedicated to guis and exporters and editors when there's barely enough to work on the engine itself.
Trust me, I understand. I contribute to FOSS all the time. However the topic of the thread is "What Happened to Ogre." I'm explaining to you the short comings of the engine in my opinon and why it is losing marketshare overall. Again it's all my opinion, and not a knock against Ogre it self.
bronzebeard wrote: But still, between v1.4 and v1.8 the only option for export of meshes from 3dsm cost $800 per license. That's a lot of money. I could have paid for 3 copies of c4 engine and get that functionality out of the box...
I've never seen OgreMax cost more than $250. Unless you are talking about Ofusion, but that died out years ago (last update looks like 7 years ago).
I may have been getting the two prices confused, but the price is moot.
Then again, Max is $5775 per license, plus $4045 every year to upgrade to the latest version. Maya is the same. You can buy 20 copies of OgreMax for the cost of a single Max license.

I hire 3rd party development studios and freelancers to do the artwork. What they use and the cost of it is no concern to me. There are liability clauses in our contracts just in case there are any damages (forget the exact term for it, but it allows me to sue anyone who'se work causes me damages. In any event I check for registered licenses regardless. My main concern is them ripping off artwork online and passing it off as public domain or their own. In Soviet Ukraine, I guess movie stars posters are fair game ;) ) However, contractually In most cases I am responsible for any additional export tools they need to purchase to deliver the models. This is especially true when you're working with people in the developing world. That adds up. Specially If you have 15 different people doing $1000 jobs each. (Granted I was lucky enough to only deal with 3 companies/freelancers max.)
Focusing on a high quality FBX converter would be a good option. Max and Maya both use FBX for interchange. Unity uses FBX as its main import format (despite what it might appear, Unity can't load Max or Maya files directly, it really opens Max in the background and does an auto export to FBX). The FBX sdk is also free (don't need the Ogre team to pay tens of thousands of dollars to support autodesk products). It even supports collada and obj formats as a bonus.
Totally agree.


Anyhoo don't take it as a slight against Ogre. It's just my opinion on why we're losing game makers to all the other engines.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by dark_sylinc » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:43 am

bronzebeard wrote:Because exporting meshes was a pain in the ass or expensive until Easy Ogre Exporter came out, I lost 2 damn good, free, artist. Thank god for EOE, or I would of given up on finishing the game, and would have continued working in a dead-end retail job until I blew my brains out. But still, between v1.4 and v1.8 the only option for export of meshes from 3dsm cost $800 per license. That's a lot of money. I could have paid for 3 copies of c4 engine and get that functionality out of the box...
Partly to address that I'm planning on adding support for the OpenGEX format.
Because of two reasons:
  1. The format is actually really good, easy; and contains everything we need. It's basically our XML mesh and skeleton format, but in JSON.
  2. Joint effort. There are already plugins. Open Source plugins. Which are being used for the C4 engine. If Ogre adopts the same format, we can share the burden of maintaining 3D asset exporters. Those are hard to maintain given Autodesk always releases a new version every year with partically no difference but breaking many plugins on the way. It should also empower more adoption of the OpenGEX format, and hopefully get others in. Unlike Collada, OpenGEX is good.
That aside, because of the ease to make games in other engines now days, I have increased competition, even in my niche. My game looks like crap compared to other car games because someone using unity can generate awesome car paint shaders with a click of a mouse, where as I have to fight rtss, assuming I'm lucky enough to not have to write the shader my self...
I understand that, and one of the main reason the HLMS is on development.
drag-and-drop shader editor
Someone is working on it ;) But it will have free and paid features
possibly (debatable) an official GUI with ~finished~ set of tools.
This is the hardest thing to achieve. Mostly because we're a graphics engine.
A GUI means we move towards things like Unity or UE4. We would then need to enforce texture format conventions and import processes (i.e. Unity takes one folder and uses it as "Assets" or "Resources". Then every texture you import goes there and receives a conversion treatment), integration with other interfaces (game logic and physics) otherwise it's nearly useless.
One thing leads to another, and suddenly we seriously need to become a Game Engine.
bronzebeard wrote:Sorry for the rant, but that's my take on the state of Ogre3d pre-2.0
No offense taken :)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by EricB » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:01 am

dark_sylinc wrote:
That aside, because of the ease to make games in other engines now days, I have increased competition, even in my niche. My game looks like crap compared to other car games because someone using unity can generate awesome car paint shaders with a click of a mouse, where as I have to fight rtss, assuming I'm lucky enough to not have to write the shader my self...
I understand that, and one of the main reason the HLMS is on development.
drag-and-drop shader editor
Someone is working on it ;) But it will have free and paid features
bronzebeard wrote:Sorry for the rant, but that's my take on the state of Ogre3d pre-2.0
No offense taken :)
Hey, dark, I know all that already. You, me, and TheOnlyJoey talk about this on IRC from time to time. This is why I said "pre-2.0". ;)

possibly (debatable) an official GUI with ~finished~ set of tools.
This is the hardest thing to achieve. Mostly because we're a graphics engine.
A GUI means we move towards things like Unity or UE4. We would then need to enforce texture format conventions and import processes (i.e. Unity takes one folder and uses it as "Assets" or "Resources". Then every texture you import goes there and receives a conversion treatment), integration with other interfaces (game logic and physics) otherwise it's nearly useless.
One thing leads to another, and suddenly we seriously need to become a Game Engine.
This is why I said "debatable." If memory serves me, at one point CEGUI was official (could be wrong I was in highschool in those days and had many things on my plate.) Essentially instead of having 4 unfinished GUI libs and 2 or 3 html GUIs, and the overlay/sdktray systems. If we nominated one 1 GUI as "official" and some resources, be it GSOC student, or passer buys, put effort into finishing the layout editor and skin editors. I think Ogre would be in a lot better shape.

CEGUI and MYGUI have come a long way sure. But they both need a good chunk of work to get anywhere close to other engine's GUI systems. I had the misfortune of picking and using QuickGUI back when it had the most feature complete editor. Look how well that turned out.

Making something official is not the same as changing the focus. Ogre is a rendering engine. You don't have to ship the GUI with Ogre proper. However Ogre should pick a GUI and finish it instead of having its community spread limited resources to dozens of GUI projects doing the same thing. (Which comes down to one of the major issues with FOSS in general. Getting people to work on other people's projects instead of their own reinvention of the same project.)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:06 am

I agree with the sentiment that Ogre can't start going down the road of being a game engine, for so many reasons. At least not at this time.

It would be really cool though to have a project that piggybacks something like Ogitor, adding physics/sound/GUI as plugins. Of course, I'm sure plenty of people have had that idea ... the idea itself is no precious gem ... the real gem is someone having the time and putting in the effort. I hate to admit it, but I'm selfish and I want to see results on my projects instead of get mired in tools work :(

I'd throw money at someone if they were licensing tools and/or rendersystem support for console hardware. But would enough people do that to make it viable? Unsure.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Thyrion » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:49 am

if neoaxis would change his license to opensource it would be all there ...

but he made it much worse. Added the new terrain page streaming feature into the 700$ and 3000$ license ... :-/
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:13 am

Dark sylinc's site seems to still be blocked at my end :(
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:27 am

Thyrion wrote:if neoaxis would change his license to opensource it would be all there ...

but he made it much worse. Added the new terrain page streaming feature into the 700$ and 3000$ license ... :-/
Really? I can't see anything on the site with regards to pricing.

Is it one of those hidden things to 'get you in'?

(edit)
Yep, just found it http://www.neoaxis.com/neoaxis/licensing
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by insider » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:29 am

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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:29 am

Ninja'd me by 20 seconds :)

Funny that it only supports Windows and OSX, given the range of platforms Ogre will work on now.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Zonder » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:53 pm

dark_sylinc wrote: Partly to address that I'm planning on adding support for the OpenGEX format.
Because of two reasons:
  1. The format is actually really good, easy; and contains everything we need. It's basically our XML mesh and skeleton format, but in JSON.
  2. Joint effort. There are already plugins. Open Source plugins. Which are being used for the C4 engine. If Ogre adopts the same format, we can share the burden of maintaining 3D asset exporters. Those are hard to maintain given Autodesk always releases a new version every year with partically no difference but breaking many plugins on the way. It should also empower more adoption of the OpenGEX format, and hopefully get others in. Unlike Collada, OpenGEX is good.
It might be time to officially support an open interchange format. I have just read through the info on it and it defiantly is the right sort of format for OGRE. What I do like is they have given the import code as well on the site so it should be a matter of remapping to ogre structures.
Shouldn't this be a plugin to the new resource system though?

EDIT

Actually I am been daft it can't be :) (Unless scene was in the spec and I didn't see it in the GSoC)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:29 pm

Thyrion wrote:if neoaxis would change his license to opensource it would be all there ...

but he made it much worse. Added the new terrain page streaming feature into the 700$ and 3000$ license ... :-/
Yeah Neoaxis is not an attractive option for me, though I certainly don't blame anyone for a closed source business model. It's tricky to monetize open source.

Anyway, for $4,500 flat I can roll out Unity across every device known to man, including consoles. I doubt I would need any tweaks to Unity's core ... just the ability to write C++ plugins which you get with your pro license. Neoaxis might be well worth it, I'm not in a position to judge, but I doubt they are licensed middleware for consoles (they don't even support GLES2 from what I can see). So I'd need a source license and build my own rendersystems. That doesn't get me much closer to my goals than I am now ... I doubt I can build all those render systems for ($4500 - $2895) worth of my own time :lol:
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Kojack » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:56 pm

bronzebeard wrote:Trust me, I understand. I contribute to FOSS all the time. However the topic of the thread is "What Happened to Ogre." I'm explaining to you the short comings of the engine in my opinon and why it is losing marketshare overall. Again it's all my opinion, and not a knock against Ogre it self.
No prob. I've spent 10 years helping students make Ogre game projects using 3dsmax. It sucked for the first few years, I had to modify the Octopus exporter (anybody remember that one from around 2005?) to support what we needed (so I had to learn Max script). We used a trial of Ofusion for a bit, but that stopped updating. OgreMax suddenly turned awesome and we all rejoiced. Then it went commercial, $250 is a lot for students who can barely afford food and are given 3dsmax, maya, visual studio ultimate edition for free. EasyOgreExporter came along and things are better again, except 90% of the students now use unity.
So I've been on the receiving end of many complains about exporting to ogre (although a lot of the artists don't realise most engines are similar. They get annoyed when told to not use 4096x4096 jpgs for everything, modelling every joint of every finger in a character that is no bigger than 200 pixels on screen, trying to export custom materials that used custom max plugins, etc).

It's definitely an issue. It's just hard to solve. The only exporter that's lasted well is OgreMax, and that's because it's commercial. It's hard to keep people working on the free ones.
(Hmm, I should get back to my sketchup exporter one day...)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:29 am

With all this opposition to Ogre in game engine form, is it worth considering taking Ogre to the next level and expanding what Ogre is?

The graphics side of Ogre are world class. Couple that with and input system, networking capability, an IDE, then all bases are covered.

I'd be more than happy to chip in and help where I can. :D
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:21 am

I don't see why Ogre would expand out to a game engine, or even take any initial steps in that direction whatsoever. There are barely enough members to keep the renderer progressing. Each of the areas you mention already has multiple projects that fit. Also, I think Ogre focusing on increasing the library's adoption through ease-of-use or direct competition with commercial offerings is not the right move. Are you ever going to make Ogre easier to adopt than commercial middleware? (hint: no)

The way to go for Ogre is "if you build it, they will come". Focus on the core ... rendering ... and make it really efficient at what it does. People will take note of this performance and interest in the project will increase. And it will be exactly the type of interest that benefits the project, bringing in people with programming experience who can potentially fall in love with the project and contribute docu or code. This is what the project needs as opposed to people with potentially no experience just looking for a free game engine (eg. "how to make MMO plz?"). I think the project is right on track for achieving this with 2.0.

If anything, Ogitor is in a really good position to fill the role of a sandbox editor. Qt editor with a well thought out plugin architecture, and many worthy addons already available (skyx, caelum, hydrax, pagedgeometry, angelscript). Additional libraries could easily be pulled in to act as subsystems of a more robust game engine. Ogitor is like a nugget of pure gold hiding under a thin layer of dust :D
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:24 am

c6burns wrote:Are you ever going to make Ogre easier to adopt than commercial middleware? (hint: no)
Hint: absolutely. I am already doing it. 8)

There are several people using my Ogre 3D extension for Game Maker: Studio. They have been screaming for Ogre 3D in GM:S for years.

I have personally made Game Maker: Studio have the ability to use the Ogre 3D renderer as a whole replacement for Game Makers own renderer. The results blow the standard GM ability out of the solar system.

So, that is two world firsts for GM:S. First, I bought the ability to render videos as 'sprites' with the full functionality of GM's standard sprite system. And then, I bought Ogre 3D to Game Maker Studio.

So I am fully confident myself and the Ogre team could do it.

Absolutely.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by al2950 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:32 am

c6burns wrote:Ogitor is like a nugget of pure gold hiding under a thin layer of dust :D
I could not agree more :D.

People keep talking about there being no official tools for Ogre, but you cant make any official fully functional tools because Ogre is only a rendering engine not a game engine. HOWEVER, I always thought something like Ogitor could grow so it could be the foundations for anyone wanting to add a sandbox editor to their engine based on Ogre.
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by Klaim » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:53 am

As long as there are efforts to help me work with Ogre, it's enough for me to use it (when I need graphic flexibility).
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:56 am

Isn't Ogitor purely a scene editor?
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by mmixLinus » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:12 am

lonewolff wrote:..., is it worth considering taking Ogre to the next level and expanding what Ogre is?

The graphics side of Ogre are world class. Couple that with and input system, networking capability, an IDE, then all bases are covered.
A separate project? Yes. Expand Ogre? No.
c6burns wrote:I don't see why Ogre would expand out to a game engine, or even take any initial steps in that direction whatsoever. There are barely enough members to keep the renderer progressing. Each of the areas you mention already has multiple projects that fit. Also, I think Ogre focusing on increasing the library's adoption through ease-of-use or direct competition with commercial offerings is not the right move. Are you ever going to make Ogre easier to adopt than commercial middleware? (hint: no)
c6burns wrote:The way to go for Ogre is "if you build it, they will come". Focus on the core ... rendering ... and make it really efficient at what it does. People will take note of this performance and interest in the project will increase. And it will be exactly the type of interest that benefits the project, bringing in people with programming experience who can potentially fall in love with the project and contribute docu or code. This is what the project needs as opposed to people with potentially no experience just looking for a free game engine (eg. "how to make MMO plz?"). I think the project is right on track for achieving this with 2.0.
Ok, there are a couple of things that need straightening out:
  1. Ogre is a Rendering Engine. You CAN'T make it into a game engine, because of 2
  2. At the heart of every game engine, there lies a rendering engine.
Personally, I do not believe "if you build it, they will come", if by "they" you mean "the masses". The masses will go they way of least resistance, so if the choice is between picking up software that is self-contained (does all I want it to do) and gluing together several pieces with blood, sweat and tears, they will pick the software suite. (Note to any lurkers: This is an exaggeration. It's probably only seen as blood sweat and tears to the real beginner)

The reasons to choose Ogre3D (the Rendering Engine) are:
  • I am making my own - or have a 3rd party - game engine, and I can put the libs together myself
  • I am not making a game, but coding a 3D scene of sorts (like me)
  • I can put the libs together myself, and don't want to pay a lot of money to get started commercially. (like me)
Of course, things may change. Increasing costs for Unity for example, would push more users over here.

So my point is if you make Ogre an even nicer rendering engine you won't be enticing any masses to knock on your door. What you/we need is a project that puts the bits together for the developer. It will be an official Ogre project, in the sense that the Ogre team will be cooperating with the "Engine Team", and maybe even be part of it. The Engine team will put together Ogre3D, a 2D GUI, a Physics Engine, Water-and-Sky-and-Tree-and-the-Kitchen-Sink Engines and TOOLS in an attractive, cross-platform package that just builds. But it won't be called Ogre. (It might not even have Ogre in its name!)

And remember, despite how daunting a project like this may seem, the key is to start small.

:arrow: All IMHO :)
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:20 am

lonewolff wrote:
c6burns wrote:Are you ever going to make Ogre easier to adopt than commercial middleware? (hint: no)
Hint: absolutely. I am already doing it. 8)
"Unity is a rapidly growing company with more than 300 employees from 32 different nations, working in 27 locations."

No offense, man ... I love the indomitable spirit, but you don't compete with that. You are never going to beat Unity in a tools showdown. Sure you can grab up some decent subsystems from open source projects, but let me know when you have an answer for mechanim and animation graphing / the asset store / umbra occlusion culling / beast lightmapping.

It's great to dream big, but in terms of what the Ogre project should be for the next while, my vote would be this:
A performance-competitive renderer that leverages features of the latest in graphics APIs while remaining API agnostic.

Which is great because that's exactly what I see happening with Ogre right now and the great work going into 2.0 :)
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lonewolff
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by lonewolff » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:22 am

So my point is if you make Ogre an even nicer rendering engine you won't be enticing any masses to knock on your door. What you/we need is a project that puts the bits together for the developer. It will be an official Ogre project, in the sense that the Ogre team will be cooperating with the "Engine Team", and maybe even be part of it. The Engine team will put together Ogre3D, a 2D GUI, a Physics Engine, Water-and-Sky-and-Tree-and-the-Kitchen-Sink Engines and TOOLS in an attractive, cross-platform package that just builds. But it won't be called Ogre. (It might not even have Ogre in its name!)

And remember, despite how daunting a project like this may seem, the key is to start small.
100% my view on the big picture. 8)
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c6burns
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Re: What happend with Ogre?

Post by c6burns » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:23 am

mmixLinus wrote:Personally, I do not believe "if you build it, they will come", if by "they" you mean "the masses".
I think I am misunderstood, so just to clarify. I do not think Ogre should go beyond being a renderer.

By "it" I mean a really great renderer that competes with commercial renderers in terms of performance. Not competes with commercial turnkey engines

By "they" I mean people with an interest in contributing to Ogre as a renderer, or people interested in creating associated tools projects that help out the community. I do NOT mean the masses.

Anyway ... party on, Wayne :)
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