Sample Resources Improvement

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Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

Something that's bothered me for a while has been the non uniformity of ogre's sample media. There is no standard scale, orientation or origin to the meshes. The license of the media (especially textures) is also vague. This makes things difficult for beginners who can't put two sample meshes in the same scene without trial and error scaling, offsetting and rotating.

While the ogre sample media is intended primarily for use in the ogre samples, having a selection of useful media already in ogre format is a great feature for rapid prototyping, especially for coders who have no art skills or nearby artist.

I've already fixed some issues with a few of the meshes (cube.mesh had broken normals, geospheres didn't have the origin at their center so they wobbled when rotated, etc) around a year or two ago (I think ogre 1.7 has the newer versions), but there's a lot of changes I want to make which will break current media use, which is why I put this in papercuts.

Take a look at this pic:
Image

These are all the ogre sample meshes side by side with the same scaling factor. The green line is the Y origin.

Problem: Scale
As you can see, the scale varies wildly. Here's the size (in ogre units) of each mesh:

Code: Select all

athene.mesh  Size: <55.3616, 163.262, 64.7096>
Barrel.mesh  Size: <5.32, 6.14, 5.32>
column.mesh  Size: <47, 442, 47>
cube.mesh  Size: <100, 100, 100>
facial.mesh  Size: <58.1849, 72.8472, 57.4565>
fish.mesh  Size: <7.36978, 3.07694, 3.44928>
geosphere4500.mesh  Size: <399.78, 400, 399.728>
geosphere8000.mesh  Size: <400, 400, 400>
jaiqua.mesh  Size: <38.0775, 18.9682, 93.7924>
knot.mesh  Size: <190.216, 202.395, 147.127>
ninja.mesh  Size: <65.0689, 195.649, 101.493>
ogrehead.mesh  Size: <57.8734, 54.0165, 49.7022>
penguin.mesh  Size: <61.7703, 47.0496, 48.3053>
razor.mesh  Size: <160.639, 42.5104, 152.693>
robot.mesh  Size: <32.1252, 101.673, 49.0925>
RZR-002.mesh  Size: <24, 5, 22>
ShaderSystem.mesh  Size: <200, 200, 200>
sibenik.mesh  Size: <126, 32.6, 80>
sphere.mesh  Size: <200, 200, 200>
spine.mesh  Size: <32.7714, 104.04, 28.8151>
tudorhouse.mesh  Size: <675.985, 1120.86, 732.911>
WoodPallet.mesh  Size: <7.1967, 0.803846, 7.06621>
Sinbad.mesh  Size: <8.88854, 8.93138, 4.69699>
dragon.mesh  Size: <230.912, 288.056, 268.653>     
Some appear to be modelled to cm scale (jaiqua and athene are roughly human size at 1.6m tall). The ninja is 1.95m, so he's either very tall or the scale is not cm. Sinbad is modelled in feet I'm guessing, so he's 8.9 feet tall, which sounds about right for an ogre. Razor is 8 times bigger than rzr-002, but both are very similar ships.

Proposal: All meshes should be scaled to a uniform real world unit. My preference is metre scale, since this is the international standard unit for distance measurement and physics engines tend to like metre scale. If another scale is preferred by the majority of users, fair enough, as long as it's uniform for all meshes.


Problem: Mesh Orientation
Ogre uses -Z as the default facing direction. All lookat or setdirection style methods assume -Z as the default, and untransformed cameras face -Z.
But the meshes use various facing directions.
+Z : athene, ogrehead, penguin, razor, rzr-002, sinbad, facial
-Z : ninja, jaiqua, dragon
+X : robot
-X : fish

Proposal: All meshes should face -Z. This means that ogre's camera and general facing direction code matches the facing direction of every mesh. If you tell a scene node to face another object (auto tracking, lookat, etc) then the mesh within the node should be looking at the target too, not backwards. The +Z direction might be ok for models you just want to drop in a scene and look at (like athene), but once they are controlled as dynamic objects it's much simpler to have them follow the ogre standard.


Problem: Mesh Origin
The origin for meshes varies as well. This one is a little trickier because different uses benefit from different origins.
The ninja, jaiqua and robot all have the origin at their feet (centred on X and Z, 0 on Y). This is the best position for any mesh which is placed in a typical scene, you can make a mesh sit perfectly on the ground without knowing how big the mesh is. You tell meshes where to stand by placing their feet. For all general objects this is a good standard.
Sinbad, tudorhouse, dragon, barrel, athene, razor, rzr-002 all have the origin around their centre. Placing them in a scene requires checking their bounding box so they can be offset from the ground (if padding is on in the mesh manager, as it is by default, then the models will float a little above the ground).

But usage can vary. I think all objects which are placed on the ground should have an origin at the base/feet, but objects which rotate on any axis (ships like razor and rzr-002, spheres, anything in the air) work better if the origin is their centre of mass. Physics engines also tend to use centre of mass for positions.

Proposal: All ground based meshes (furniture, living things, etc) should use a centred on X and Z, 0 on Y origin. Other objects (utility shapes likes the spheres and cube, or non ground based stuff like the fish, razor, etc) can use the appropriate origin for their intended use (probably centre of mass).


Problem: Licensing
Ogre has a heap of textures. There's 131 just in the texture resource path, plus more in zip files and maybe other directories (such as pczappmedia).
The problem is that the license doc with ogre isn't very clear on the license for all these:
Matt Anderson at http://www.The3dStudio.com who kindly gave permission for the use of some textures. These textures are used with permission of http://www.The3dStudio.com and may not be re-distributed, sold, or given away except in the form of rendered images, animations, or real time 3D applications when credit is given to http://www.The3dStudio.com.

Jonathan Clark at http://www.jonathanclark.com for some Golgotha textures thet were released to the public domain.

Grass texture is courtesy of Mathias 'freezer' Walc
Which textures are from Matt Anderson? We need to give credit to The3DStudio if we use them.
Which textures are from Golgotha?
We have 3 grass textures, which is from Mathias? All three? (One is overhead grass for terrain, 2 are for grass geometry rendering)
Most of the meshes are covered in the licensing page (ninja and robot are from psionic, facial and jaiqua are from SoftImage samples, etc), but who created athene, fish, penguin and tudorhouse?

Proposal: All sample resources should have clear licenses. We should have a page in the docs which shows a thumbnail of each texture and lists where they came from and what license they have. Or at lease keep them in different directories, like how the 6 nvidia licensed textures are in textures/nvidia.


Problem: Sample media could do with a touch up / replacement.
Some of the sample media is getting a bit old (8 years or so). We should update or replace some of them.
Razor has bad jpg artifacts clearly visible in it's texture, and it uv unwrapped at a 30 degree angle which makes painting textures hard.
Droplet.png has no alpha channel. (While it works fine as an additive particle, it's black border sucks for alpha particles).
Ogrehead is non manifold, is old and has been used by other 3d engines in rendering samples.

Proposal: Razor isn't really needed anymore since we already have rzr-002 (which looks cooler). Other textures and meshes can be improved. Ogrehead should be replaced by Sinbad's head (the 3d model, not steve, although a laser scanning of steve's head would be damn cool). Actually I seriously think we should change the ogre logo to use the sinbad head too, it's a much better looking model and is made by a community member instead of being an old character studio sample file.


Other things that would be nice but not likely to change: make all meshes have similar animation and bone names. Preferably have all of them follow sinbad.mesh's example and have upper and lower body animations for easier blending. It probably won't happen, but I can dream.




Of course there are a few potential problems with these improvements.
Changing any sample media will affect the sample browser. This is pretty minor though, we can fix that easily. But it will also affect the wiki (all tutorials need to be checked, etc) and any user projects (install ogre 1.9 or whatever and find your ninja is 100 times smaller).
Size is always an issue. There's currently around 59MB of media resources. We wouldn't want to increase this by much (preferably make it smaller if possible). I'd love to add tons of new high quality sample meshes and textures, but it's a waste for most users. One solution to this would be a separate repository (like ogreaddons) just for resources which are ready for ogre use and meet all the requirements I've mentioned above. This could have stuff which isn't used by the sample browser, but is available for users for quick inclusion in their own projects.

Even if all the other proposals are ignored, we really do need to fix the licensing issue of textures and meshes.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by jacmoe »

About time someone took a look at this. :)

Even the robot is way too big when working in 1 meter == 1 unit..

Some of the media could be replaced by Worldforge media.

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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by spacegaier »

Really good point Kojack! I think we should really try to tackle them!

Scale: Agreed.
Orientation: Agreed (orientation of -Z).
Origin: Agreed.
Licensing: Very much agreed (although will most likely be hard to resolve).

I am also not that much concerned about breaking anything in that regard. The samples can easily be fixed by us and if we make a proper public announcement, not people should be aware that here might be some temporary issues with the wiki articles that - upon notification - can be quickly solved. I myself would volunteer to retest all the officla tutorials once the media is updated.

Any ideas on how to best proceed? Create a new temporary repository on BitBucket just for the media where we can fix it and then later merge it into main?

BTW: Is there any chance we can still get that in Ogre 1.8?
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by jacmoe »

Licensing would be low priority compared to the other tasks IMO.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by spacegaier »

jacmoe wrote:Licensing would be low priority compared to the other tasks IMO.
Yes, as those resources are mostly used as placeholders and for short demos, that is not my main concern either. And as I said it is doubtful whether we will be able to clean that up at all. Perhaps it makes sense to replace some textures that we cannot really tie to its creator anymore with some newer ones to enhance the overall quality.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by spacegaier »

I think we need nicer environment maps. The one currently used in the RTTS sample looks really, really bad for example.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

I wasn't sure where to put this, since it's art related, but something for the core devs to approve, and not entirely a feature request since I intend to do most of it myself. I put it in paper cuts since it's a potentially breaking change which normally isn't worth bothering with (it's just annoying), but you are right, feature request is a better place.


Most of the model problems can be fixed in mesh magick. We can rotate, scale and recentre the binary meshes. Sinbad has a blender file, so we can change him in blender (if Omniter doesn't mind), that way it's ready so people can add new animations and stuff and it's already oriented on -Z. I don't know about blender, but 3dsmax hates to move a rig once it's skinned to a mesh (breaks everything if you aren't careful), so could be tricky.

I have an urge to add an interior to the tudor house. I google image searched for tudor houses, 99% of the real ones look ugly compared to ours. :)


Ok, while typing this I took a quick break to download tootle, build meshmagick and start resizing stuff. Here's my current progress:

Image

The ninja is now 1.7m tall (roughly average height of a japanese male in 2006).
Jaiqua is 1.65m tall.
Sinbad is 2m (I tried him as 8.9 feet, he looked too big).
Robot is 2m. I'd like him to be a bit taller, but that antenna on his back extends his height too much. I'd like to remove it, but then I'd need the source files and I've never seen them on psionic's site.
Athene is also 2m. The original statue was 12m, but that would be too big. The samples are using it as a roughly human sized statue.
Fish is 30cm long. (Not sure of the fish breed, so haven't looked up correct length)
Tudorhouse is 12m tall. That's just a rough guess, it made the front door big enough for the ninja to fit through. :)
Not visible there are razor and rzr-002, I made both 12.5m long, which is the length of an X-Wing fighter. They look about right like that, looks like the ninja could fit in the cockpit.

I haven't edited sinbad's blender file yet, this is just rough testing with meshmagick.

I'm planning to run tootle over the meshes too (tootle is ati's tool for optimising vertex cache ordering and sorting triangles to minimise overdraw), since it's built into meshmagick.
Yes, as those resources are mostly used as placeholders and for short demos, that is not my main concern either. And as I said it is doubtful whether we will be able to clean that up at all. Perhaps it makes sense to replace some textures that we cannot really tie to its creator anymore with some newer ones to enhance the overall quality.
Yep, I was thinking that too. Any textures we don't have clear license info on should be scrapped and replaced with ones (made by us or found online) with suitable licenses.
We are fine with the sample browser's media being non commercial only, but since ogre is free for commercial use it's confusing for users if the media isn't the same.
I think we need nicer environment maps. The one currently used in the RTTS sample looks really, really bad for example.
We should have at least one hdr light probe available. Some new skies would be nice (in my college framework I have a heap of non commercial skyboxes from a counterstrike mod site).
I offered a new spherical environment map taken with my 185 degree sunex super fisheye lens back a couple of years ago, but it wasn't used.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by spacegaier »

Kojack wrote:I offered a new spherical environment map taken with my 185 degree sunex super fisheye lens back a couple of years ago, but it wasn't used.
Then I think now is a good time to pitch that in again and get it into the media repository :). Can't be worse than what we have right now ;) .
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Ocelot »

I think that robot should be bigger. Ninja vs Sinbad looks ok, but robot vs Sinbad does not.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

Yep, he does look a bit small. It's hard to tell what a good scale is for things like that, is it a terminator style humanoid sized robot, a power loader style robot that a person could pilot, or battlemech size? (Probably not evangelion size).


Hmm, Ryzom's art resources are all CC attrib-sharealike, there's 17000+ textures in there. Some could be good replacements and the license is good.

I've just looked through all 2021 golgotha textures, I only spotted 2 that ogre uses: rustymetal.jpg and water2.jpg.
(I probably missed some, I just scrolled, didn't do a directory compare).
Most golgotha textures are low res and all are jpgs, so there's artifacts. At least the Ryzom textures are all png. (DDS with DXT1 would be better, although that might make things difficult for android/iphone)
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by jacmoe »

Great work here! :)

The Worldforge assets are GPL licensed.

Which means - and they've checked that with the FSF (upon my request) - that they are free to use, also commercially.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by masterfalcon »

Haven't finished reading the whole thread yet but I've always thought that the fish was a Rainbow Trout, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_trout.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

I just checked the fish's texture, it's named steelhead.png. Your wikipedia page says that steel head is the name for a salt water rainbow trout. Good catch.
National Geographic say they grow to around 51cm to 76cm long. A nice simple 60cm is probably ok.
We might need to make the fresnel demo's pool a bit bigger for them though. :)

Ah, worldforge! I was trying to remember the name of the other resource I'd downloaded. I remembered Ryzom and openfrag, but couldn't remember worldforge (although it's taking up 18GB of my E:, (7GB zip, 11GB expanded)).
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Jabberwocky »

Awesome job Kojack.
Big improvement.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

I've been hunting the tudor house.
Ogre has had tudorhouse.mesh (and fw12b.jpg, it's texture) since at least 2006 (first mention of it on the forum).
Irredit 1.4 (scene editor for irrlicht) has had the same model but called house.3ds (still with fw12b.jpg) since at least 2008. It doesn't have any license info for it either (psionic is a popular guy with 3d engines, irredit includes his dwarf mesh too). Did sinbad copy house.3ds from an old version of irredit? Did irredit find it by coincidence?

(I could just ask sinbad, but it's more fun to track them down myself)
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

The3DStudio online store claims to be the exclusive distributor for our beachstones.jpg texture. It costs $8 and the license is that if we use it in a game / simulation / vr world we must encrypt it or use proprietary formats so nobody else can use it.
Of course I've seen the same texture all over the place, I think it came from an old version of 3dsmax or something.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by spacegaier »

Wouldn't it be easier to just replace those textures with new ones to save you the trouble of hunting down the licenses?

From a legal point of view, would it be enough for us as the Ogre Team to pay the 8$ once and then include it in the SDK (if the texture is worth the hassle)?
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

I was just bored and decided to do a tineye search on a few. Several turned up as downloads on the TheSimsResource. :)
If The3dStudio really owns the rights to the beachstones.jpg (which I doubt), their license says that if we buy the texture, we can't let anybody else get access to it from our product. Ogre would have to hide it or encrypt it so only our sample browser uses it, nobody who downloads ogre is allowed to see it in the media directory.

I don't believe they own it, but it's iffy things like this that make image use on the net difficult.

The ogre head, with body and texture, is still selling for $1095.
Omniter's is much better, and is animated. :)
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by spacegaier »

Kojack wrote:I don't believe they own it, but it's iffy things like this that make image use on the net difficult.
The we should look perhaps for a replacement. Better safe, than sorry. So if you come across any possible replacements, just post them here.
Kojack wrote: The ogre head, with body and texture, is still selling for $1095.
Omniter's is much better, and is animated. :)
Yes, we will stick with our community version.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by duststorm »

Nice work Kojack!
I have been wondering about this exact same thing too.

Another idea, apart from borrowing material from Ryzom/Worldforge repositories, might be to start an "Asset Donation" thread on the Artist forum. That way we could give the opportunity for artists to have their work eternalized by including it in the next release of Ogre, if it gets selected. One of the requirements would have to be that they are formal about licensing terms.
This might be a good way for Ogre to gain some more "2011 worthy" art to show off the capabilities of the engine, since a lot of the resources on Ryzom/Worldforge repos are also dated. Other (mostly commercial) engines, like Unity, come with much fancier samples mostly due to better artwork. It would be nice if Ogre could have a bit of that too ;).
We could also do with some new textures, as the resolution of most sample textures is pretty low compared to today's standards.

Another remark: if we include high-quality artwork with Ogre, maybe we need to think about mobile and older platforms too and create separate hi-end and low-end categories of sample resources.

And a final remark: if someone fixes Sinbad, they might also try to fix the rigging of his shoulders as well (have a look here: http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=67897)

Just some thoughts of mine :)
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

I've put the plan on hold for a short time, I'm just finishing marking week (teaching is cool, but the marking is a massive time sink). But on thursday I'll be on holidays until around mid feb, so I can resume in a few days (if Skyrim doesn't distract me). :)

The asset donation thing is a cool idea.
For ogre itself we could set up a list of resources that are needed (3 tiling grass textures, 4 flame sprites, a car mesh, etc) to update the samples, so there's a plan of what's needed. We need to keep the main distribution small (since those ones will be in the mercurial repository). But there could also be an addon style one where we take any resource that's ogre compatible and set up for suitable scale/orientation/etc. Hosting would be an issue though.

I think kinect pose tracking is a bit beyond what sinbad was originally intended for, but he looks so cool at it! The original kinect demo with him is still one of the best kinect demos I've seen.
I could probably do the basic changes to sinbad (rotate and reposition him), but rigging and skinning are way beyond my skill level. I work with some damn cool artists, but they are all Max people, their eyes glaze over when I try to mention blender. Hmm, then again, I barely know how to control the camera in blender, I've never edited meshes or animated anything.

We need to give the ninja a run animation too. He has a ton of animations, but no run, just a walk. Playing walk at high speed makes him look like a benny hill sketch.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Kojack »

We could try for a different fan base.

Image

I'm sure Pyritie would approve. :)

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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by Alexiss »

I like the idea of donating for assets too.

However, perhaps we could try to invert the process. I'm sure that if we "offer the unique opportunity of seeing their creations in our wonderful engine" to young talented artists, there would be volunteers.

Anyway, if this asset donation idea kicks off, I would donate.
On a side note, I've been thinking that it would be really cool to have a all-in-one demo showcasing the best features Ogre has to offer.

Oh, and back on topic : awesome work Kojack :-)
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by duststorm »

Alexiss wrote:However, perhaps we could try to invert the process. I'm sure that if we "offer the unique opportunity of seeing their creations in our wonderful engine" to young talented artists, there would be volunteers.
I was thinking among those lines too.

Haha, nice image Kojack, do you think the Ogre is intimidated by all that cuteness? ;)

Some thought I was having just now: Sinbad could still use some finishing touches, apart from the shoulder animation. Think of how badass he could look after some detailed texturing and normal/specular mapping. Much like the skin on a model that Sinbad once thought of buying: http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 88#p202188

Of course that takes away the cartoon feel of the model, but it would offer some art that can demonstrate the use of more advanced shaders.
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Re: Sample Resources Improvement

Post by jacmoe »

Would be better to create a bad brother. :)
The Sinbad model is done.
/* Less noise. More signal. */
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