Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

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Which of the following distributed version control systems do you use the most?

Poll ended at Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:00 pm

Git
48
48%
Mercurial
45
45%
Bazaar
6
6%
 
Total votes: 99

mahok
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by mahok » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:23 pm

sinbad wrote:
mahok wrote:And that is why they will use Mercurial. Yeah, carefully considered. :)
Feel free to denigrate my evaluation process and opinion, I can take it. Still, your summary is exaggerated for effect and confidently manages to ignore every salient point I've ever made during my evaluation, but hey, those are only details, they can't possibly be important. Not when you have 'absolute truths' to defend.

I find it rather sad that some Git advocates resort to cheap shots, patronising remarks and abuse when someone makes a decision they don't agree with. But, whatever helps you get through the day and maintain your belief that Git is universally the best answer for everyone and unchallengeable in absolutely all respects. At least I don't go around trying to tell other people what's best for them, I just explain what's best for me. Feel free to disagree, I'm comfortable with people having different opinions to mine even if you are not.
I wrote that mostly because of this:
jacmoe wrote: IMO, Git is great for a one person 'team', or very small teams. Git is fun, it has lots of coolness factor.

You sure sound like a fanboy, Betajaen.

I really hate that lousy pile of shit which is TortoiseGit.

I've booted into Linux more than once because of Gits crappyness on anything other than Thorvald's OS.

You two cents means nothing.
Since you've only used Git, I mean.

The big problem with Git is that it really hasn't moved much further away from being Linus' hastily put together set of repo tools targeting only Linux.

And I really don't need to learn all the nooks and crannies of Git, when Mercurial is doing what I need it to do, in a more straight-forward manner.
Git is just too geeky for my tastes.

And Linus’ Google Tech Talk convinced me that choosing Mercurial was the right choice.

You don't notice Mercurial users much, because they don't spend their time evangelising.

CodePlex -> http://www.codeplex.com/ (By Microsoft :D)

You don't have to understand the switch, as it is the Ogre team who decides what's best suits their needs.

Yeah, it is pretty *cool* that you can fork a project and follow it and feel that you are part of a social network around the project..

If you need that sort of programmers facebook environment around it, then it's fine.

If you weren't blinded by faith, you'll see that Sinbad performed an extensive evaluation.
So, sorry Git evangelists.

Have nothing against Git per se - it's basically Linus' set of dvcs programmers tools.

Well, I think it's safe to say that Linux and Git has the largest number of evangelisers, compared to almost everything else.

Get a life for Christ sake. :wink:
Now, what were you saying about elitism, arrogance, religions and all those things...?
All I see here is jacmoe trolling every post about git based on... git evagelists... where?
You guys basically started the thread, and kept the tone, attacking the git users as elitists, based on what experience and numbers?
What will be the next pearl? "It is a witch! Burn!"?
You guys don't seem to be different from these so called "arrogant git/linux people" from what we can read here.
Don't tell me the quotes are out of context... :wink:
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by jacmoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:01 pm

With all due stuff, Mr. Troll, you missed the emoticons. :wink:

And you pulled out random quotes.. Out of context you can make anyone say anything..

@JustBoo: Don't feed them! :)
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:35 pm

@mahok: I don't see my name on those comments, I made my own decision based on review and rational argument, not on emotion and hearsay. I treated Jacmoe's thoughts on this matter with the same weight as any other external opinion (including those from Git advocates), did my homework and drew my own conclusion. You seem to think that I made this decision lightly, which couldn't be further from the truth.

You chose to read Jacmoe & others more enthusiastic anti-Git arguments as my own, that's just not the case at all. Yes, there are advocates on both sides (although personally my experience is that I'm lobbied by Git advocates far more than Mercurial advocates), but if you think I'm swayed by that rather than practical experience with the tools themselves, you're very much mistaken. No offense meant to Jacmoe, but I take his opinions with as much of a pinch of salt as anyone elses ;)

You saw in this thread what you wanted to see - justification to dismiss my evaluation as moot due to an inherent bias. I refute that stance utterly, simply by the sheer number of hours I put into experimenting with both. If I was biased, I wouldn't have bothered. And actually, as I've said a hundred times, Git pleasantly surprised me in real use given my initial surface impressions. In this thread there have been pro-Git and anti-Git comments (you chose to extract all of the latter and none of the former), and I basically ignored all of them to be honest, except when they were backed up with actual concrete fact (such as Mercurial's larger sizes, Git's Windows compatibility etc). General community preference was but one factor in 10 that I evaluated formally - and Git won (by 5 points to 4).

Tell me, how many hours have you put into trying out both DVCSs to come to your preference? Because I bet I've spent more.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by guyver6 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:15 pm

mahok wrote:Now, what were you saying about elitism, arrogance, religions and all those things...?
All I see here is jacmoe trolling every post about git based on... git evagelists... where?
You guys basically started the thread, and kept the tone, attacking the git users as elitists, based on what experience and numbers?
What will be the next pearl? "It is a witch! Burn!"?
You guys don't seem to be different from these so called "arrogant git/linux people" from what we can read here.
Don't tell me the quotes are out of context... :wink:
I was too frustrated by the attacks on Git about its elitism and arrogance and I actually tried to have some arguments to back my claims, nevertheless no one can argue with the fact that no core developer in the Git community is interested in having a welcoming attitude towards Windows or Windows users - and I know it first hand sharing with Git community a patch to make Git better on Windows. After a ton of iterations over the patch, the only changes that were accepted to the core Git was pthread variables initialization change (from static to dynamic one), because there was no easy way to do the same on Windows, the rest of the patch is a clever use of macros to hide from Git developers the knowledge that they have a support for Windows anyhow. So come on, who on earth uses forking (instead of threads), POSIX file access (instead of ANSI C streams in example), relies on symbolic links and uses Perl in a software that supposed to be "cross-platform", not to mention that non-POSIX platforms are treated as a necessary evil with no will from core devs to put in nor even accept patches with abstractions to make the code more portable?

Sinbad did put a lot of effort to evaluate the possibilities and after all the choice that was made is the only right option at the moment, and giving that Mercurial just made another step at being better (1.5 release annd 1.0 of TortoiseHg), even thou it's not that advanced in underlying algorithms as Git, it is the best DVCS available for Windows. Why would one chose worse option?

As a sidenote, you've joined very polite and friendly community and you'd know that if you'd join not only to troll around - you haven't had a single valid argument in evangelizing Git, all you did is just useless rant. If I were you I'd apologize.

PS. I'm talking so much about Windows here because that's platform most Ogre users are focused around. Just if you didn't know.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:49 pm

It's true: we have many Linux and Mac users too (I use all 3 OS's, although only Windows and Mac on the desktop) but windows is the most common.

From our web browser stats for ogre3d.org:
Windows: 82%
Linux: 10%
Mac: 7%
So naturally good Windows support is an important factor for us. Git actually works pretty well on Windows, but it's definitely much, much slower and I encountered a few weird crashes, particularly during conversion processes (but not exclusively so). Git isn't by any means unworkable on Windows, but support is most definitely poorer, and that principle comes right from the top, as guyver6 says. So I couldn't ignore that when Mercurial was 100% consistent across the board with cast-iron support for all platforms equally from the top. It's not a deal-breaker on its own, but it's enough to give Mercurial the edge for us, over say storage efficiency which Git is better at. For people who use Linux mainly it's not an issue of course, but they're the minority in our community.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by guyver6 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:51 pm

I cloned the ogre-test using TortoiseHg through SSH on another system and had no problems except for some CRLF warnings like before. The SSH problem I had was, as I suppose, due to id_rsa file in C:\Users\Endru\.ssh directory - once I removed it TortoisePlink started to pick up key from Pageant. I'm not 100% sure, because I removed the -batch and -agent parameters from Mercurial ssh option, but adding -batch after removed id_rsa file it still works, so I'm pretty sure it's that file.

I'm giving now that clone a compile, but I suppose it will work.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:16 pm

Great, glad you got it working.

Most people have been quiet on this so far, I hope that's because it's working for them. We're on a 7-10 day countdown for going live with this now.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by Azgur » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:22 pm

sinbad wrote:Most people have been quiet on this so far, I hope that's because it's working for them.
You're correct :)
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by Bontakun » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:09 am

I originally voted for git, but now I want to take back my vote and give it to Mercurial. The space issue doesnt bother me so much - I like the fact that Mercurial clones a repo *with its entire history*. Otherwise they are similar in power, but Mercurial is has more Sinbad-points in reliability and cross-platformness... Ive been trying out Mercurial for a whole 24 hours now! :lol:
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by guyver6 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:13 pm

I'd like to share nice resource with you: http://pycon.blip.tv/file/3359640/.

The best of it is: Our enemy is SVN :)
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:40 pm

Good presentation, but I hate it when people start calling SVN "the enemy", it's really unprofessional. Just because it's a centralised system, with all the inherent issues that has, doesn't make it worthy of being classified an 'enemy', especially as it's an open source project too - the developers deserve more respect than that. I don't know why some people have to take it to such extremes and start hating on things that have contributed a lot in their own right just because they came up with something cleverer. It's ironic that the talk was subtitled 'why can't we all just get along' : IMO that attitude should extend universally, not just to fellow DVCSs.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:01 pm

It's official, we should be switching to Mercurial this weekend: http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 97&start=0
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by guyver6 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:05 pm

sinbad wrote:Good presentation, but I hate it when people start calling SVN "the enemy", it's really unprofessional. Just because it's a centralised system, with all the inherent issues that has, doesn't make it worthy of being classified an 'enemy', especially as it's an open source project too - the developers deserve more respect than that. I don't know why some people have to take it to such extremes and start hating on things that have contributed a lot in their own right just because they came up with something cleverer. It's ironic that the talk was subtitled 'why can't we all just get along' : IMO that attitude should extend universally, not just to fellow DVCSs.
The presentation was more to show the similarities between these two DVCSs and why its useless to argue which one is better, than to attack SVN. I've talked to Scott in person after other presentation (so called "afterparty") and I don't think he's able to hate anything open source :). A presentation has to have some entertainment in it to keep the audience awake :) and I think that's the reason Scott put such strong statement. After all he's Git evangelist working for GitHub, and GitHub supports Git and Hg and not SVN ;)

Personally I respect every open source developer that puts heart into the product, especially as good as SVN or Ogre. I used SVN long before Ogre did migrate to it ;) nevertheless I can't support the fact that SVN developers held on to design choices they made at beginning for so long (which IMHO makes them as hard-headed as Linus or Matt) that Git and Hg made a successful landrush on so many open source projects that it changed the way open source works. This is especially emphasized by SVN developers announcement that they'll introduce DVCS-like features along with performance enhancements in 1.7. I think it is too late for winning open source developers hearts again, but it might help with enterprises, where centralised systems will stay for a little longer (it always takes years before enterprises catch up with the news ;) ) - distributed SVN might be easier to adapt for them than moving to Hg or Git; nevertheless SVN has to make that move soon if it doesn't want enterprises to go with the flow migrating to DVCS their employees are using at home (and employees are the main driving force of change inside huge companies), or being converted to DVCS by guys like Scott.

As to the latest conversion you've put up I get no CRLF warnings anymore so I can't wait for the switch :)
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by rayee » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:06 am

sinbad wrote:
rayee wrote:It's fact that git has been widely used in open source projects more than others DVCS. Yes, it may not be the case on Windoz, I've not used Windoz as my major desktop years.
This is the kind of attitude I've encountered around Git (and historically Linux) a lot. "I don't need to use anything other than Linux (or git), so neither do you". It's staggeringly arrogant to assume your requirements are the same as everyone elses.

I'm quite happy for people to mirror OGRE's repository in Git if they want, it just won't be our official repository. I like Git, it's a good piece of software ... so long as you use a *nix based OS and are comfortable with complexity over intuitiveness. During my evaluation I went from really resenting Git's interface and the superior attitude of its evangelists, to actually liking it and appreciating its technical strengths. I came close to choosing it in fact. But in the cold light of day Hg was simply a better choice for us, since we have many, many Windows users and many developers that appreciate user-friendliness over complexity.

A thought for the day: if you ever think there is a single universal 'right' answer to something - anything - you're wrong. The only universal truth in the world is that there is no universal truth. Everything is relative. Evangelists often don't understand that, which is why most of them are not worth listening to.
AHA! This thread still has NOT been closed.
In order to make this thread even more hot, let me again making a little contribution to it. :mrgreen:
I know that something will be changed at this weekend. never mind, almost no impact on us. as a consumer, we just spoke out what our thoughts.

Why It's fact...? It's based on numeric, not arrogant.
As using the term "git,mercurial" on trends.google might not get exactly what we want, trying the #1 search engine with these temrs:

Results 1 - 10 of about 13,900 for "git to hg". (0.16 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 19,600 for "git to mercurial". (0.20 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 45,200 for "mercurial to git". (0.16 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 96,500 for "hg to git". (0.17 seconds)

to hg: 13,900+19,600 = 33,500
to git: 45,200+96,500 =141,700
Is't easier to make sense?

on another side, all of you guys know that there are not only Win or Lin on the planet.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by guyver6 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:00 am

rayee wrote:on another side, all of you guys know that there are not only Win or Lin on the planet.
Speaking of numbers:

"windows" 915,000,000
"mac os x" 345,000,000
"linux" 286,000,000
"freebsd" 93,800,000
"netbsd" 3,200,000
"openbsd" 2,710,000
and in general
"unix" 82,700,000

:twisted:
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by rayee » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:47 am

guyver6 wrote:
rayee wrote:on another side, all of you guys know that there are not only Win or Lin on the planet.
Speaking of numbers:

"windows" 915,000,000
"mac os x" 345,000,000
"linux" 286,000,000
"freebsd" 93,800,000
"netbsd" 3,200,000
"openbsd" 2,710,000
and in general
"unix" 82,700,000

:twisted:
Well, you do agree above data, you want to say "Win is #1" for market share, ok, it's fact! everyone on the planet may know that.

although it's off topic, but it just been proven oppsitely that Git is a definite winner for market share, it's stick with topic. :lol:
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by Assaf Raman » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:46 am

Guys, I will ask you to stay on topic - if you want to continue the path of the last few posts - create your own thread and post a link to it.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:09 am

guyver6 wrote:Personally I respect every open source developer that puts heart into the product, especially as good as SVN or Ogre. I used SVN long before Ogre did migrate to it ;) nevertheless I can't support the fact that SVN developers held on to design choices they made at beginning for so long (which IMHO makes them as hard-headed as Linus or Matt) that Git and Hg made a successful landrush on so many open source projects that it changed the way open source works.
Well, I think all developers and especially designers are inherently hard-headed - when we invest ourselves deeply into a project and a set of principles, particularly in open source where you're internally motivated and don't get paid to do it, it's a labour of love, it's hard not to be attached to it. I think it's always worth keeping that in mind, and even though it may have been amusing to DVCS people to label SVN as the enemy, I think it was in poor taste. I think an SVN developer would have been offended by that, and that's unnecessary.

And actually, just because a better idea comes along for some cases, doesn't mean it's universal - there are different perspectives always. For example, I still fully intend to use Subversion for small local projects just because it's simpler (in a 1-developer set-up not having to push/pull to place the repo on a backed up server is one less step). A DVCS is really only useful when you're actually distributed :) I do think a lot of open source developers think that their model of highly decentralised, highly parallelised development is more common than it actually is in the development world as a whole, simply because open source developers talk & evangelise to each other far more than corporate developers do. There are millions of dev teams that are entirely centralised behind corporate walls and you never really hear from them much.

Yes, when you have people working from home or when travelling it starts to be useful again even within corporate walls. But a lot of companies are very paranoid about letting corporate code sit on local machines outside the office, and only want to let people VPN to machines inside the company when they're working from home, rather than truly decentralising data. I think some companies will start using DVCSs, but others will consider centralisation a benefit and not a drawback.

For open source though, DVCS is a no-brainer.

@rayee: I've never made decisions based solely on what everyone else is doing, and I don't intend to start now. Relative popularity in the OGRE community (note the emphasis) was one factor in my decision, and one only. If I based all my decisions on what was trending in Google, I'd be listening to Lady Gaga and wearing Burberry. And no, I'm not doing either.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by jacmoe » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:37 am

After I started using Mercurial, I create repositories everywhere. :)
Because it's so easy, and because I don't want to spend too much time on 'How on Earth did I manage to ruin a perfectly good application?' situations.
I work freer because I am using a time machine. I can always revert - or at least inspect history.
So even for one man shops, a DVCS shines.
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Re: Git, Mercurial or Bazaar - which do you use most?

Post by sinbad » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:50 am

jacmoe wrote:After I started using Mercurial, I create repositories everywhere. :)
Because it's so easy, and because I don't want to spend too much time on 'How on Earth did I manage to ruin a perfectly good application?' situations.
I work freer because I am using a time machine. I can always revert - or at least inspect history.
So even for one man shops, a DVCS shines.
I don't think it really makes any difference if you already have SVN and work on a LAN. I already have all the history tracking I need, and the thing is, I don't trust my local desktop HD. So for anything remotely important I need to push to a server which has RAID and regular backups. That's an extra step over and above committing that in a 1-man set up is not doing very much useful. OK, if you have no server / backup system already set up, DVCS is useful because it's so quick to use locally without configuring anything, and you can just push to other machines for backups. But if you're already a bit more organised with a backed-up server on your LAN it's really not that much of a benefit unless you're truly distributed or work while travelling a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I think DVCS is great for decentralised development (why I like it for OGRE) and for people who haven't got anything already. But if you're a small, localised team with private repositories already set up in SVN, unless you have merging problems already or do a lot of work while disconnected, I'm not seeing a big impetus to convert. I don't really think we'll see a massive exodus to DVCS for corporate development any time soon.
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