What about new project maintainer?
- boyamer
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What about new project maintainer?
Hi all,
After Sinbad retirement for healts motivation Ogre has been little bit abbandoned, i think would be better if we can find new project leader and maintainer,
what do you think about this?
I would vote Assaf Raman
After Sinbad retirement for healts motivation Ogre has been little bit abbandoned, i think would be better if we can find new project leader and maintainer,
what do you think about this?
I would vote Assaf Raman
Last edited by boyamer on Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
- so0os
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I vote Cabalistic
PS. Isn't there a mourning period required before that?
PS. Isn't there a mourning period required before that?
Sos Sosowski
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I don't really know, we should ask Ogre team people.so0os wrote:I vote Cabalistic
PS. Isn't there a mourning period required before that?
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
What exactly would you ask of a new project maintainer? So far I think we have managed all required tasks as a team (like the 1.7.2 release); I'm not sure what the appointment of any of us as a new "project lead" would accomplish
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I know that Ogre3d is maintained by community and given team, but a project maintainer would maybe prepare plans for future releases, which tasks should team member implement, add new features and so on.CABAListic wrote:What exactly would you ask of a new project maintainer? So far I think we have managed all required tasks as a team (like the 1.7.2 release); I'm not sure what the appointment of any of us as a new "project lead" would accomplish
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Having a wonderful, dedicated team and having a leader are different things.
It's often easy to think that because the leader is someone who makes the final call, and here we do everything by merito- and democracy, then we don't need one. Wrong. Even a democracy needs a president. An acephalous democracy can subsist for some time, sometimes surprisingly long, but it will fade with time and eventually collapse.
A leader is expected to:
* Compile, pack and upload Ogre releases. And no one else (unless specifically designated by the leader).
* Have final word on cutting features which will get delayed for next release (in other words, he decides when is it time to cook new release).
* Coordinate schedules, even when they're flexible (as they've always been in Ogre)
* Be aware of the status of the other team members, so he knows what is each one working on, how long will it take, and if someone else (team member or not) is doing something similar, he can tell him which team member he should get in contact with.
* Be someone the other team members can ask to if there's a doubt (coding standard, a Mercurial issue)
* Decides who gets repository access (and who doesn't need it anymore)
* Be the public face of the project, so that new non-Ogre users, both hobbyist and professionals, when evaluating the engine can know which the project vision is and get in touch with in case there's a not-too-technical doubt (something wouldn't not fit in the forum, like legal issues). This becomes more important for professional users, rather than hobbyist though.
Note this doesn't necessarily mean, that, for example, in a forum thread it is discussed who gets repository access, but it is the leader the one who admins the Mercurial repos.
In Corporations, even the board of directors have a leader (when supposedly, every member of the board is technically equal). This leader is the one that opens bank accounts, registers his signs in the bank, etc. Corporations have the right to opt for joint signatures (all members of the board have to sign) but it is often not used because it is too much of a hassle.
With a leader, there is a vision, there is a better utilization of synergy. It helps people from not feeling lost. Sometimes with just writing "Project Lead" in it's 'team role' paragraph it's enough to encourage.
I shall note, when voting a leader, it doesn't necessarily have to be the one with most technical expertise; most of his decisions as a leader are usually non-technical.
Note: A vision is not an objective. Visions is where the project is going to, more long term oriented. Objectives are short term, and oriented towards that vision.
A vision is
"We want Ogre to become among the 3rd best Graphics Engines in the next 5 years, and keep it that way" or
"We want Ogre to expand to handhelds" or
"Ogre will become a game engine, rather than just graphics engine"
An objective for those 3 visions are: "We're going to implement DX11 renderer", "We're going to make an Android port", "We're going to implement pathfinding", respectively.
By the way, here are your participants, pick one
It's often easy to think that because the leader is someone who makes the final call, and here we do everything by merito- and democracy, then we don't need one. Wrong. Even a democracy needs a president. An acephalous democracy can subsist for some time, sometimes surprisingly long, but it will fade with time and eventually collapse.
A leader is expected to:
* Compile, pack and upload Ogre releases. And no one else (unless specifically designated by the leader).
* Have final word on cutting features which will get delayed for next release (in other words, he decides when is it time to cook new release).
* Coordinate schedules, even when they're flexible (as they've always been in Ogre)
* Be aware of the status of the other team members, so he knows what is each one working on, how long will it take, and if someone else (team member or not) is doing something similar, he can tell him which team member he should get in contact with.
* Be someone the other team members can ask to if there's a doubt (coding standard, a Mercurial issue)
* Decides who gets repository access (and who doesn't need it anymore)
* Be the public face of the project, so that new non-Ogre users, both hobbyist and professionals, when evaluating the engine can know which the project vision is and get in touch with in case there's a not-too-technical doubt (something wouldn't not fit in the forum, like legal issues). This becomes more important for professional users, rather than hobbyist though.
Note this doesn't necessarily mean, that, for example, in a forum thread it is discussed who gets repository access, but it is the leader the one who admins the Mercurial repos.
In Corporations, even the board of directors have a leader (when supposedly, every member of the board is technically equal). This leader is the one that opens bank accounts, registers his signs in the bank, etc. Corporations have the right to opt for joint signatures (all members of the board have to sign) but it is often not used because it is too much of a hassle.
With a leader, there is a vision, there is a better utilization of synergy. It helps people from not feeling lost. Sometimes with just writing "Project Lead" in it's 'team role' paragraph it's enough to encourage.
I shall note, when voting a leader, it doesn't necessarily have to be the one with most technical expertise; most of his decisions as a leader are usually non-technical.
Note: A vision is not an objective. Visions is where the project is going to, more long term oriented. Objectives are short term, and oriented towards that vision.
A vision is
"We want Ogre to become among the 3rd best Graphics Engines in the next 5 years, and keep it that way" or
"We want Ogre to expand to handhelds" or
"Ogre will become a game engine, rather than just graphics engine"
An objective for those 3 visions are: "We're going to implement DX11 renderer", "We're going to make an Android port", "We're going to implement pathfinding", respectively.
By the way, here are your participants, pick one
- spookyboo
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Sinbad can still play the role of visionary and be the face of Ogre, without doing the other tasks.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I think a leader would be nice but it is a role that will take a lot more time to do well, and there may not be any volunteers. On the other hand there may be too many volunteers, which can cause more problems than not having a leader.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I totally agree that this project should have a leader.
I asked about this before and the answer was something like "we decided there is no need for a leader" and I walked away from that thinking "Hmm... I don't think that's going to work".
Whilst managing the day-to-day operations is possible without a leader, I am afraid that the quality of the code base will slowly but surely decrease, and the project will lose an understanding of the bigger picture and actual progress is made less and less eventually leading to the project becoming irrelevant as there will be other projects which will be more active and more up-to-date.
I think this is inevitable and it can only be avoided by having a leader who is 1) capable of being a leader, preferably someone with previous project manager experience, and 2) has the time for the job (let's not underestimate this).
Since this is an open-source project with no paid positions, someone with the time to do the job can probably be a better choice than a more experienced person who is tight on time.
I think some members do an amazing amount of work (Assaf and CABAListic for example) and I have been amazed at how they can keep doing it because they must have other commitments too. But let's remember that this is about something different so this criticism of the lack of a leader is not at all directed at these hard-working people who keep this project alive. They are people this project depends on to survive but this only highlights that the project needs to have a clear leader. What if Assaf and CABAListic, and others who have worked hard to keep this project alive, all become monks and move to Nepal, giving up their computers? It could happen!
I asked about this before and the answer was something like "we decided there is no need for a leader" and I walked away from that thinking "Hmm... I don't think that's going to work".
Whilst managing the day-to-day operations is possible without a leader, I am afraid that the quality of the code base will slowly but surely decrease, and the project will lose an understanding of the bigger picture and actual progress is made less and less eventually leading to the project becoming irrelevant as there will be other projects which will be more active and more up-to-date.
I think this is inevitable and it can only be avoided by having a leader who is 1) capable of being a leader, preferably someone with previous project manager experience, and 2) has the time for the job (let's not underestimate this).
Since this is an open-source project with no paid positions, someone with the time to do the job can probably be a better choice than a more experienced person who is tight on time.
I think some members do an amazing amount of work (Assaf and CABAListic for example) and I have been amazed at how they can keep doing it because they must have other commitments too. But let's remember that this is about something different so this criticism of the lack of a leader is not at all directed at these hard-working people who keep this project alive. They are people this project depends on to survive but this only highlights that the project needs to have a clear leader. What if Assaf and CABAListic, and others who have worked hard to keep this project alive, all become monks and move to Nepal, giving up their computers? It could happen!
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I think we still need Sinbad to be our leader.. but he doesn't have to be COO, CEO, CTO and Chairman like in the past . Like someone else has mentioned, Sinbad could probably just be deciding on the ideas or he could probably the one who said.. hey this is enough, so probably it is the time to release 1.8 as it is. Something like that..
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- sparkprime
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Sinbad had (and still has) an enormous creative/intellectual/emotional investment in the project that anyone else would find hard to match. For anyone else, OGRE will be a foster-child at best.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
You guys can say what you want: the team has decided to operate without a leader.
For now.
I think they're doing an excellent job.
For now.
I think they're doing an excellent job.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Well, the point is, I think you can't simply appoint someone to fill the role of project lead - he has to grow into it. This may happen naturally with someone from the team (or the community), or not. But for now, imho there is no obvious choice to replace sinbad, so we're going to continue to operate as a team.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
It just feels like this project doesn't have any direction anymore, that it isn't being pushed forward. Maybe there at least needs to be more community facing news/updates on what is actually being done?
Also when looking at the roadmap nothing ever really changes on it so it doesn't feel like OGRE is progressing towards anything.
Also when looking at the roadmap nothing ever really changes on it so it doesn't feel like OGRE is progressing towards anything.
- boyamer
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Agree.
From my point of view Ogre3D development is more slowly as it was before, with respect to all developers,maintainers and
contributors but would really be shame if Ogre is going to die as it is number one rendering engine at the moment.
From my point of view Ogre3D development is more slowly as it was before, with respect to all developers,maintainers and
contributors but would really be shame if Ogre is going to die as it is number one rendering engine at the moment.
- betajaen
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Me too.jacmoe wrote:You guys can say what you want: the team has decided to operate without a leader.
For now.
I think they're doing an excellent job.
However if a leader was appointed I think either; he should naturally become one (as CABAListic mentioned) via his natural charms and traits of becoming a leader, or the other civilized choice is to have elections.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I mean: does it really have to sprint at all times?
There's no signs of Ogre 3D disappearing/dwindling any time soon.
Progress happens in bursts.
There's no signs of Ogre 3D disappearing/dwindling any time soon.
Progress happens in bursts.
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- Chris Jones
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
It doesn't have to sprint no but it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. It would at least be nice if there were more updates (even single sentences) from the ogre team members about what they are working on. Maybe a sticky thread or something that is updated often? Currently all we have are roadmaps whose tasks aren't being worked on (or if they are, you can't really tell). It makes it look like the project has stalled.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Really, there is only one way to counter this: Participationboyamer wrote:Agree.
From my point of view Ogre3D development is more slowly as it was before, with respect to all developers,maintainers and
contributors but would really be shame if Ogre is going to die as it is number one rendering engine at the moment.
Much of sinbad's day-to-day "job" was to process patches from the sourceforge tracker. But if you look at that, there's been hardly any activity since the release of 1.7.2 (we processed a bunch of patches prior to release).
Actually, I had an idea some time ago to increase community participation by encouraging reports of minor annoyances and inconsistencies (similar to Ubuntu's papercuts initiative). I should revive that idea.
- betajaen
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
We have the hidden forum (hint hint).CABAListic wrote:Actually, I had an idea some time ago to increase community participation by encouraging reports of minor annoyances and inconsistencies (similar to Ubuntu's papercuts initiative). I should revive that idea.
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
For me this is a good idea.
I think that now the "graphic run" has quite stopped, and all the gamedev is concentrating on having reusable and productive tools that can get cool content on as many screens you have.
Ogre has the perfect structure for this job, but IMHO it's lack of tools and its DX8ish/single threaded architecture make it somewhat old, big and awkward to someone that wants to start a new project today.
And for what i can see, what is mostly done now on Ogre is manteinance or adding of minor/advanced features that make everything even more bloated.
To me a project mantainer would be someone that has a clear vision of what comes next, and what target of users has to be favoured over the others when deciding the overall structure of the project.
So it would also have a really important role: deciding what to cut off, and what features start from scratch.
I think that now the "graphic run" has quite stopped, and all the gamedev is concentrating on having reusable and productive tools that can get cool content on as many screens you have.
Ogre has the perfect structure for this job, but IMHO it's lack of tools and its DX8ish/single threaded architecture make it somewhat old, big and awkward to someone that wants to start a new project today.
And for what i can see, what is mostly done now on Ogre is manteinance or adding of minor/advanced features that make everything even more bloated.
To me a project mantainer would be someone that has a clear vision of what comes next, and what target of users has to be favoured over the others when deciding the overall structure of the project.
So it would also have a really important role: deciding what to cut off, and what features start from scratch.
- sparkprime
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
I think the massive structural that would be needed to move OGRE forwards, to the point where it can replicate the achievements of the latest AAA games, would require so much work that it would have to be a forking of the project.
- so0os
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
When I grow up and green I want to be ogre's official mascot!
Sorry, I just couldn't resist....
Sorry, I just couldn't resist....
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Re: What about new project maintainer?
Whatever happens, I just want to say thanks to those who have stepped up and kept things rolling.
I'd also suggest front page news items for new releases of projects like: Ogitor, ParticleUniverse, NxOgre, Beastie, OgreMeshy, the Player Demo, and OgreMax.
A big part of Ogre's appeal is it's thriving community. Recognizing and showcasing both Ogre team and community accomplishments is good for that community.
I agree with Chris. I'd love to see more visible updates on things like the RTSS. It may be a good idea to pimp those accomplishments a little more in the roadmap or news. For example, RTSS is such a big feature that completed sub-features could easily be announced as milestones in the development of Ogre.Chris Jones wrote:Maybe there at least needs to be more community facing news/updates on what is actually being done?
I'd also suggest front page news items for new releases of projects like: Ogitor, ParticleUniverse, NxOgre, Beastie, OgreMeshy, the Player Demo, and OgreMax.
A big part of Ogre's appeal is it's thriving community. Recognizing and showcasing both Ogre team and community accomplishments is good for that community.