Game Programmer(s) needed

A place for employers, project leaders etc to post if they are looking for people to assist with an Ogre-based project. Please only post in this area if you have a _serious_ project proposition for which you already have something to show for.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Shadow Blind »

Thanks but no thanks we already have a few songs.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by c6burns »

I think this is also a good choice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YohjI5LEB1w
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Shadow Blind »

.. again, I just said I picked the music so please.. just stop, it's useless..
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by c6burns »

Shadow Blind wrote:please.. just stop, it's useless..
Funny, I was going to say the same thing about your posting in this forum at all :lol:

Didn't you say you are switching to Unity? You should head over to their forums to post and give us all a break. This is for projects using Ogre, not for high school kids aspiring to make cat dancing videos. It would have been painfully clear to any adult or professional person at this point that no one from this forum is interested in working with you.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Kojack »

Settle down everyone.

There are a few ways to go with indie mmorpgs.
(I've never used these myself though)
- World Forge. It's a free open source mmorpg framework. One of it's clients uses Ogre. http://worldforge.org
- RealXtend. This also uses Ogre. It's a virtual world system inspired by Second Life. Also free and open source. http://realxtend.org
- Saga of Ryzom. This was a commercial mmorpg that went open source. I don't know how easy to modify it is, but it has a proven track record as a real mmorpg.

Unity on its own isn't going to make an mmorpg possible, however adding something like SmartFoxServer to it apparently makes an mmorpg possible very easily (there's a tutorial on the unity wiki: http://wiki.unity3d.com/index.php?title=MMO_tutorial ).

Of course the most fun bit of MMORPG development is hosting. You'll need a massive connection to handle the bandwidth of an MMO. Unless you have a small number of players, in which case it's an morpg.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Shadow Blind »

c6burns wrote:
Shadow Blind wrote:please.. just stop, it's useless..
Funny, I was going to say the same thing about your posting in this forum at all :lol:
Gee that wasn't funny. I want to punch you in the face for saying that, thank you.
This is funny though, because you're useless. Thank you.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by spacegaier »

Shadow Blind wrote:I want to punch you in the face for saying that
Official warning! Regardless of how you regard the comments and feedback you receive here (that you basically asked for by posting here), in no way is it okay to slip into such an abusive tone and language!

As Kojack already said: Cool down everyone. No need to antagonize each other!
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Kojack »

I'll just point out that although I mentioned multiple engines, Ogre is quite capable of doing an MMO. Well, the graphics side.
But the graphics side is the easy part of an MMORPG, what you really need is a team of experienced network and security coders. The network code, database and entity systems of an MMO are the most important parts. So any existing framework that does those for you is a big advantage. But the more you use other people's code (especially closed source stuff) the more dependent on them you are for bug fixes and features.

That's just for coding though, design of gameplay for an MMO is a massive task too. Depending on what you actually have in there. Balancing and fine tuning all the mechanics, rules and properties will require psychology, statistics, probability, hours (or years?) in a spreadsheet and other fun design theory activities.

Designing an MMO is like an architect designing a building. The theme and style seem important to someone on the outside, but it's the placement of pipes and electrical cables, material selection, elevator floor pattern programming, location of fire stairs and a million other details that will make or break the final design.

(But again, it all depends on what the game actually is)

Generally, my motto is "If you need to ask how to make an MMO, you aren't ready to make an MMO". It's the kind of project that belongs in the hands of highly experienced teams. Athletes don't get to compete in the Olympics without first qualifying locally, so too should game developers not try an MMO until they have general game development mastered.

Of course it's a (relatively) free world, anybody can try to make any kind of game they want. Nobody here is trying to stop you from making a game, just suggesting that completing a smaller polished game first is better than spending years trying to do something huge. Especially since a finished game can act as bait to get other developers on board, showing you have the patience and talent required.
Shadow Blind wrote:And you say a "full time programmer" but really.. I've had a lot of people that it'd only take a few months to do only just the MMORPG part because it's not that hard..
:shock:
As someone with 20 years network programming experience and who currently teaches network and game programming with ogre to college students... I'd say that's not exactly accurate.
Kind of the way saying pi is 4 or the universe is only 1000km wide is not exactly accurate. :D
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by insider »

Kojack wrote:I'll just point out that although I mentioned multiple engines, Ogre is quite capable of doing an MMO. Well, the graphics side.
But the graphics side is the easy part of an MMORPG, what you really need is a team of experienced network and security coders. The network code, database and entity systems of an MMO are the most important parts. So any existing framework that does those for you is a big advantage. But the more you use other people's code (especially closed source stuff) the more dependent on them you are for bug fixes and features.

That's just for coding though, design of gameplay for an MMO is a massive task too. Depending on what you actually have in there. Balancing and fine tuning all the mechanics, rules and properties will require psychology, statistics, probability, hours (or years?) in a spreadsheet and other fun design theory activities.

Designing an MMO is like an architect designing a building. The theme and style seem important to someone on the outside, but it's the placement of pipes and electrical cables, material selection, elevator floor pattern programming, location of fire stairs and a million other details that will make or break the final design.

(But again, it all depends on what the game actually is)

Generally, my motto is "If you need to ask how to make an MMO, you aren't ready to make an MMO". It's the kind of project that belongs in the hands of highly experienced teams. Athletes don't get to compete in the Olympics without first qualifying locally, so too should game developers not try an MMO until they have general game development mastered.

Of course it's a (relatively) free world, anybody can try to make any kind of game they want. Nobody here is trying to stop you from making a game, just suggesting that completing a smaller polished game first is better than spending years trying to do something huge. Especially since a finished game can act as bait to get other developers on board, showing you have the patience and talent required.
Shadow Blind wrote:And you say a "full time programmer" but really.. I've had a lot of people that it'd only take a few months to do only just the MMORPG part because it's not that hard..
:shock:
As someone with 20 years network programming experience and who currently teaches network and game programming with ogre to college students... I'd say that's not exactly accurate.
Kind of the way saying pi is 4 or the universe is only 1000km wide is not exactly accurate. :D
+1
Explained very well, I hope the OP gets the point. :)
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by shadowfeign »

I've got a big project started myself, so I thought I'd add my two cents(or perhaps in my case one and a half)

The way I'm going about my project, a strategy rpg, is I'm splitting it up into phases. The first phase is making a puzzle game that will be around 90% reusable in my main project. That way I'm getting a game off the ground, and still moving forward towards my goal, and its not draining a lot of time away from my main project. Not every game will have logical ways to split up code, but there are things you can do. Not only will I have some experience with a game at that point, but I'll have something I can use to gain funds or bring other people to the project.

From your earlier posts, I gather that you and your friend are going to be the artist and writer for the game and you need only a coder. So I'll say this now, the best way to attract people to a project is to have a project well underway. Kindof the catch 22, you need money to make money. While you don't have a programmer yet, you have already have your artist, yourself. So don't wait around for a game to happen, start making art for it. At the minimum programmers will need to see some concept art showing what the characters look like, what the world will look like. How is that music video going? While I'm not all that interested in it on its own merit, I'd rather watch a music video of the bands I like, but I am interested to see what kind of art you can produce. If as a programmer I'm going to be relying on your art for whatever game I make, I need to know what level it is likely to be. Aside from 2d art, how are you at 3d? We'll need to see some 3d art as well, there are a couple decent model viewers built with ogre so you can see how they will look in game. And don't worry about not having a game to put them in yet, the more assets you have already done, the more likely you are to attract someone to help.

At this point, you're right, this post is getting pretty pointless, to get it back on track, get some concept art posted of at least the main character, and a 3d model of the hero with a walk and idle animation(for now). Also get some concept art of at least the starting city/area, and one or two other areas. Also I'd say set up some place you can talk about the progress you're making such as a blog or website, or gallery site. If you're set on making the music video, go ahead and post that too, it won't show us anything about your game probably, but it will show people what you are capable of at the moment, and then work on getting drawings and models to show. And do take to heart that people here are correct to some degree, an MMORPG is a very big undertaking, the mmo part is not small. the rpg part is not small, work hard, and keep moving forward and do the stuff that you Can do in the meantime.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Kojack »

Something for everybody to remember too, not every one has the same concepts in mind when we use certain terms. One person's MMORPG might be another's MORPG. To me, MMORPG means able to handle 1000+ people simultaneously in a single server, along the lines of the big commercial ones. I think of the network, security, griefers, cheaters, etc. But other people may say MMORPG to refer to the style of gameplay, not the size. A game with WOW style gameplay mechanics (movement, visual style, basic rules) but way cut down scope and limited player numbers (more like a minecraft server) is certainly achievable.

So it's best to not overreact to someone's game idea until you know if what they mean is the same as what you think they mean.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Ident »

I think Shadow Blind made it pretty clear that we all have to work a lot on ourselves to become more useful, harder working and overall better people. In this spirit I suggest we use this thread as a well of inspiration, as a vessel created for us to dive deep into, allowing us to learn more about ourselves, prompting us to think about what we can change about our general attitude towards work, about how we communicate with our fellow human beings and about how mercilessly we sometimes treat our taskmasters and superiours.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by bstone »

An interesting read but when you have "very simple" and "I've just tired doing this for a few years now, and failed every attempt" pretty much in the same sentence... something should start clicking in the back of your mind, no? Some good advice in this thread, as always on these forums though.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Shadow Blind »

Kojack wrote:I'll just point out that although I mentioned multiple engines, Ogre is quite capable of doing an MMO. Well, the graphics side.
But the graphics side is the easy part of an MMORPG, what you really need is a team of experienced network and security coders. The network code, database and entity systems of an MMO are the most important parts. So any existing framework that does those for you is a big advantage. But the more you use other people's code (especially closed source stuff) the more dependent on them you are for bug fixes and features.

That's just for coding though, design of gameplay for an MMO is a massive task too. Depending on what you actually have in there. Balancing and fine tuning all the mechanics, rules and properties will require psychology, statistics, probability, hours (or years?) in a spreadsheet and other fun design theory activities.

Designing an MMO is like an architect designing a building. The theme and style seem important to someone on the outside, but it's the placement of pipes and electrical cables, material selection, elevator floor pattern programming, location of fire stairs and a million other details that will make or break the final design.

(But again, it all depends on what the game actually is)

Generally, my motto is "If you need to ask how to make an MMO, you aren't ready to make an MMO". It's the kind of project that belongs in the hands of highly experienced teams. Athletes don't get to compete in the Olympics without first qualifying locally, so too should game developers not try an MMO until they have general game development mastered.

Of course it's a (relatively) free world, anybody can try to make any kind of game they want. Nobody here is trying to stop you from making a game, just suggesting that completing a smaller polished game first is better than spending years trying to do something huge. Especially since a finished game can act as bait to get other developers on board, showing you have the patience and talent required.
Shadow Blind wrote:And you say a "full time programmer" but really.. I've had a lot of people that it'd only take a few months to do only just the MMORPG part because it's not that hard..
:shock:
As someone with 20 years network programming experience and who currently teaches network and game programming with ogre to college students... I'd say that's not exactly accurate.
Kind of the way saying pi is 4 or the universe is only 1000km wide is not exactly accurate. :D
If Ogre is oh so freaking good sucks for it because even if I do get my game back (because I just gave it away because of everyone here), I will not use Ogre. I don't care how good it is, the staff and it's users are not making me feel welcome here. If Ogre is that good, well too late now. I'm sick and tired of being treated like this- like nothing. My dream got stomped on, it was enough. Enough for me to handle. I can't take this &*^&%*)(&&^%#@$!%!)*%#@(& anymore, I'm done. Have a nice life everyone.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Shadow Blind »

Praise! (I posted from he top so you could see tone change)

[1:31:17 AM] Lord Sakoti: I feel like **.. I dun wanna talk about this right now.. x.x
[1:31:57 AM] Obi ღ: Cat, I'm a kitty cat, and I dance, dance, dance, and I dance, dance, dance X3
[1:35:59 AM] Shadow *Blind*: I'm a cat, I'm a kitty cat, that will eat your soul and suck your blood I'm a cat, I'm a kitty cat, that will eat your soul and DIE
[1:36:02 AM] Shadow *Blind*: That's what
[1:36:03 AM] Shadow *Blind*: Shadow
[1:36:05 AM] Shadow *Blind*: Would say
[1:36:13 AM] Lord Sakoti: owo
[1:36:16 AM] Shadow *Blind*: LOL I could just see Shadow like
[1:36:18 AM] Lord Sakoti: Kewl..
[1:36:18 AM] Shadow *Blind*: All like
[1:36:19 AM] Lord Sakoti: XD
[1:36:22 AM] Shadow *Blind*: *About to attack*
[1:36:30 AM] Shadow *Blind*: *STARTS DANCING WITH SERIOUS FACE*
[1:36:34 AM] Shadow *Blind*: And singing))
[1:36:36 AM] Lord Sakoti: Loooool
[1:36:37 AM] Lord Sakoti: XD
[1:36:47 AM] Obi ღ: Mew?
[1:37:08 AM] Lord Sakoti: GUYS
[1:37:09 AM] Lord Sakoti: GUYS
[1:37:11 AM] Lord Sakoti: GUYS
[1:37:12 AM] Lord Sakoti: GUYS
[1:37:14 AM] Lord Sakoti: GUYS
[1:37:14 AM] Shadow *Blind*: Not right now..
[1:37:16 AM] *** Shadow *Blind* has left ***
[1:37:20 AM] *** Lord Sakoti added Shadow *Blind* ***
[1:37:23 AM] Lord Sakoti: ;-;...
[1:37:33 AM] Lord Sakoti: I was just trying to have fun..
[1:37:39 AM] Lord Sakoti: I sorry.. ;w;
[1:37:48 AM] Shadow *Blind*: It wasn't because of you..
[1:37:54 AM] Shadow *Blind*: http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 49#p501249
[1:37:58 AM] Shadow *Blind*: Of what happened and then..
[1:38:00 AM] Shadow *Blind*: This post..
[1:38:00 AM] Lord Sakoti: I was gonna be all "I'M A BANANAAAA!" and try to make yew laugh ;w;
[1:38:15 AM] Shadow *Blind*: I think Shadow Blind made it pretty clear that we all have to work a lot on ourselves to become more useful, harder working and overall better people. In this spirit I suggest we use this thread as a well of inspiration, as a vessel created for us to dive deep into, allowing us to learn more about ourselves, prompting us to think about what we can change about our general attitude towards work, about how we communicate with our fellow human beings and about how mercilessly we sometimes treat our taskmasters and superiours.
[1:38:33 AM] Shadow *Blind*: After fighting with everyone on that ** forum..
[1:38:37 AM] Shadow *Blind*: .. *Ehm*
[1:39:00 AM] Shadow *Blind*: He/She was the ONLY
[1:39:03 AM] Shadow *Blind*: One
[1:39:04 AM] Shadow *Blind*: ONLY
[1:39:05 AM] Shadow *Blind*: **
[1:39:06 AM] Shadow *Blind*: One
[1:39:08 AM] Shadow *Blind*: That understood


I hope you all get the picture now that you all aren't good people. I've been trying to ease my way back to peace but until that *&^ing ^%& head posted "Oh HAHA THIS POST IS SO RETARDED" Yeah no. Making some one lose &^&ing hope and give up their %$##$%^ dream isn't a good person. Do you all realize, the god dang stress you've put me in? Reading ridiculous posts. I meant to get along with all of you.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by c6burns »

Had I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
Pretty sure Yeats was talking about a woman he loved, but only because he hadn't yet tried unsuccessfully to make a video game.

Anyway, I'm the only one who was rude. I'm like the Simon Cowell of this thread. Not sure why you are mad at everyone else for taking the time to offer their advice. As far as I can see you did nothing but spurn them.
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by Shadow Blind »

Other people said snippy things and it all adds up. But yes, I mostly blame you in the first place for making me give it up. Are you happy now?
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Re: Game Programmer(s) needed

Post by bstone »

Shadow Blind, you should have told that you're just 12 yrs old in your first post. Most people on these forums are much older, just so you know. I personally, though, don't approve your behavior. It's not something I'd expect from a kid of your age. And you're in no position to educate people that are 2x-4x older than you on how to live.
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by Shadow Blind »

I really don't care. Call me out again, see what happens. It's what you just did.

I've had people come up, and ask me on forums and/or games and say that I act like I'm 16 or 17. In this thread I got pissed off, which is why my crappy behavior is ohhh sooo bad compared to anyone else. None of you have lives, to sit here and tell me all the crap you did.

Now I'm leaving. I don't ever want to come back and read the dang posts. Not happening. I thought this would be fun.
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by bstone »

Shadow Blind wrote:I've had people come up, and ask me on forums and/or games and say that I act like I'm 16 or 17.
I didn't call you. I just googled some of your profiles (e.g. this one), most likely created by your parents, and they say you're 12.
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by bstone »

On a slightly related note. I have an interesting observation that evokes some scientific interest in me. Often when it comes to broken dreams and some ridiculous expectations around game development it all boils down to some weird looking cats rendered in MS Paint. Like this one:

Image

I'm sure I've seen the likes of that somewhere else in the Recruitment section of Ogre forums. Is this a recent trend or something?
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by c6burns »

Ahhhh damnit I didn't know he was 12 ... that's really young, but this thread is starting to come into focus now. I would have played this differently had I known ... I have an 11 year old myself so I know how easy it is to crush their little spirits, even with just a casual or offhand remark taken the wrong way. To my credit, his profile here said he was 24 so I figured it was open season. I found his profile at the Feral Heart forum and it says he is 12 there (edit: oh bstone even linked the profile now ... I wondered how bstone knew he was 12 because it wasn't anywhere in this thread and I set to googling)

Still if I knew my daughter was on the internet talking to people in this tone, there would be an intervention.
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by bstone »

Yeah, that's why I said he should have been open about that right from the start. Would have put everything in context including the replies.
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by Kojack »

I've spent the last 12 years teaching young people how to make games. Part of that is not letting students get in over their heads with projects that are too hard. Until they get to the end of making a game, they don't realise just how important scope management is.

Building up experience will make these things easier. If the story and characters are important to you, make a series of games. Don't let the idea die!
Make a single player combat rpg first. I can imagine the combat you described would suit that style (MMORPGs typically don't have fast reflex action). The character models can even be reused in an MMORPG version later, so it's not wasted work, it's just taking a gentler path to get there (making several games may even be quicker, because each one gives you experience to make the next one easier).
What comes to mind is the game Overgrowth.
[youtube]GFGOMs74MZg[/youtube]
I even paid to get in the alpha because I really like the tech this small team (there's only 4 of them) have been developing.
I believe you can also put your own meshes into the current game, and it has a level editor. So it might be a good base to test some ideas and see your models running around (maybe, I haven't tried modding it, but I think people in their community have).

After a single player combat game, you can get into multi player. Eventually you can move to an MMORPG. Many game companies have a dream game, the one they really want to make, but they need to work on smaller projects until they have the team/funding/experience needed to make their dream a success.

If you think Ogre is crap and we're all arseholes, that's fine. But we didn't want you to quit altogether, just to work on something easier first.
I did post several links up above to non ogre engines like Saga of Ryzom and an MMORPG addon for Unity. If you go the unity way, a lot of the hard work is already done (only if you get the mmorpg addon, the base unity engine won't help as much).

Oh yeah, since you linked to my post as the one that made you quit, I hope you didn't think the bits I was making fun of at the bottom were aimed at you. It was aimed at the people you said were telling you that MMORPGs are easy to make and won't take long. That's very wrong, and sounds like they were setting you up to fail. Sometimes honesty can be discouraging, but it's better than being misled.


To sum up, don't give up, just redirect! Take the world you've envisioned to a different game genre first while building experience and art assets. A single player third person combat game is much quicker to develop, and you can use it to show others what you have in mind. Even if it's not your dream game, having a complete game is a great thing and just the first step into the world of game development.

(I have so many dream games I want to make. I really will make the Tachikoma simulator one day!)
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Re: Yeah nope.

Post by bstone »

Kojack wrote:(I have so many dream games I want to make. I really will make the Tachikoma simulator one day!)
Wait a minute! Not a second earlier than I make a revolution in sword fighting games! :lol:
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