How does the world see Americans (and McCain/Obama)

jjp · Post by **jjp** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:18 am

I'm not sure if it is for good. A cynical person would say that in the end it doesn't really matter what you vote for because under the surface these big, centered parties are very similar. The difference lies mostly in their marketing (sure, if you take the far left and far right from the parties there is a difference but I think these people don't play any role in practice).

Then again I don't really know another way for democracy that could work, for countries with +50 million inhabitants or even a lot more.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:39 am

A cynical person would say that in the end it doesn't really matter what you vote for because under the surface these big, centered parties are very similar.

That's fine. Their similarities aren't artificial though ... they tend to follow social trends.

In other words, they tend to concentrate around point of view shared by the majority of population.

In the end it results in a stable society.

Minthos · Post by **Minthos** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:15 pm

Winston Churchill wrote:Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Sad but true :(

Evak · Post by **Evak** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:53 pm

Churchill also said something to the effect that a country usually gets the government it deserves.

I think if you could combine the best of the British and American systems you would have the best yet. Right now voting for a party in the UK means that people like Blair can hand over the premiership to whoever he chooses and you get an unelected Prime Minister without anyone getting to vote.

In the US you vote for an individual for that position, and anyone can run. And people get to vote on an actual leader even if the process has now gotten ridiculously long and tedious not to mention ridiculously expensive.

jjp · Post by **jjp** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:03 pm

Evak wrote:I think if you could combine the best of the British and American systems you would have the best yet.

I disagree

An ample example to me are the Liberal Democrats in the UK - there you've got a huge mismatch between how many people vote for them and how they are represented in the parliament. Or how there is basically no chance for another party to form in the U.S. because tactically it is always better to vote for the two big parties, even if there is someone else much better matching your political view. Pure plurality voting systems do have quite a few disadvantages in terms of how they represent public opinion.

EDIT: ok, I think you are refering to different aspects of the voting process than I am.

KungFooMasta · Post by **KungFooMasta** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:14 pm

I thought this article was interesting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25696726/

Black voters were far more likely than whites to say that Mr. Obama cares about the needs and problems of people like them, and more likely to describe him as patriotic. Whites were more likely than blacks to say that Mr. Obama says what he thinks people want to hear, rather than what he truly believes.

Mr. Obama says what he thinks people want to hear, rather than what he truly believes.

QFT

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:55 pm

Americans are sharply divided by race heading into the first election in which an African-American will be a major-party presidential nominee,

What this election really proves is that African-Americans are pretty much the only consistently racists group ( in the original sense of the term) in the USA..
While among whites opinions about Obama are generally split along political lines - he has virtually 100% support among blacks, which can only be explained on account of his race.

They will vote for him because he is black - if that's not racism, I don't know what is.

syd · Post by **syd** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:58 pm

great the neocons are back

Post by **haffax** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:11 am

warmi wrote:What this election really proves is that African-Americans are pretty much the only consistently racists group ( in the original sense of the term) in the USA..

In the original sense of the word, this would be true, if somehow the vote would be predetermined in the genome or something. I'd argue this is more determined by social development rather than racial predetermination.

warmi wrote: While among whites opinions about Obama are generally split along political lines - he has virtually 100% support among blacks, which can only be explained on account of his race.

They will vote for him because he is black - if that's not racism, I don't know what is.

The bold printed part is a rather bold statement.

Anyway. Even though I am not quite as sure as you seem to be with your assessment in the face of the meager actual data, I tend to agree. But it has to be seen in the overall social context. Black American people are significantly poorer than average, they are *grossly* overrepresented in prison population.

There is no evidence whatsoever that any of this is genetically predetermined. Unless you can come up with another reason, it is a social issue including but not limited to white racism.

So we have racism and "counter racism", fixing the underlying issues might fix both.

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:01 am

haffax wrote: I tend to agree. But it has to be seen in the overall social context. Black American people are significantly poorer than average, they are *grossly* overrepresented in prison population.

There is no evidence whatsoever that any of this is genetically predetermined. Unless you can come up with another reason, it is a social issue including but not limited to white racism.

+1

I would add that regarding the US history, the era of slavery and segregation, which isn't that far, is still influencing the collective consciousness. This may also be true for a country such as France, probably in a different way.
Giving this, I have a lot of admiration toward Americans, since it is the first time in the occidental world that a candidate with racial differences, could get at this point.

What this election really proves is that African-Americans are pretty much the only consistently racists group ( in the original sense of the term) in the USA..

First thing to notice is the main verb "to prove", in other terms "to reveal a truth"
Then "In the original sense of the term"; does it mean "being able to distinguish races" ? If so, we are all racist.
but you point out: blacks are "pretty much the only consistently racists group".
What you are saying is: "look, it is fact that this wide range of people of this given race is full of racists"

Reading between the lines, this is clear to me.
I have good news for you, Warmi. Your problem can be cured.
The most efficient way would be falling in love with a cute black woman

the only problem in America, is the melting pot; ethnic criterion keeps people separated. but you can still hang out in Europe

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:12 am

[double posts]

bibiteinfo · Post by **bibiteinfo** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:16 am

Here in Canada (You know the country above USA

) 70% of the people are behind Obama.

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:19 am

same here.
I think pretty much everywhere, except out there

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:13 am

does it mean "being able to distinguish races"

No, it means people who consider race to be a factor - that's all.

Reading between the lines, this is clear to me.
I have good news for you, Warmi. Your problem can be cured.
The most efficient way would be falling in love with a cute black woman
the only problem in America, is the melting pot; ethnic criterion keeps people separated. but you can still hang out in Europe

I am not intereseted in your insyniuations - keep'em to yourself.

BTW. I am from Europe ( or rather I was ) ...
I would suggest to take care of your own problems before lecturing Americans.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:31 am

In the original sense of the word, this would be true, if somehow the vote would be predetermined in the genome or something.

That's not what I meant. I simply said that African-Americans are pretty much the only group which considers race to be an important factor in their lives.

I would definitely agree that this is a result of their past experiences but still, their culture of elevating racial differences is pretty much the biggest obstacle left in terms of race relations.
Sure, you will always find racists among all cultures and ethnicities but generally these people are relegated to the fringes of society.

As long as race baiters like Jesse Jackson , Al Sharpton and Wright enjoy wide support among African-Americans, the situation will not change.

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 am

warmi wrote:I would suggest to take care of your own problems before lecturing Americans.

I care a lot about France's problems, and they are numerous.
I also care about American's ones also, since I'm a permanent resident of America also. Anything I'm saying that may bother you in this dedicated thread comes from a 6 years experience and knowledge of America.

And I know accusing the black population of being racist is a typical racist conservative behavior. How about Asians, Indians, Mexicans, and so on? They are not less "racists" than blacks, or whites.
If Obama were let's say Mexican, you'd be accusing Mexicans to be racists. And I'm sure they are actually already supporting him.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:20 pm

And I know accusing the black population of being racist is a typical racist conservative behavior. How about Asians, Indians, Mexicans, and so on? They are not less "racists" than blacks, or whites.

How is pointing out that blacks are preoccupied with their race , racists ?
You find me people with power like Jackson and Sharpton among whites or Asians or any other group then I will complain about them as well.

And what is a typical conservative racist behavior ? Where do you get this nonsense from ?

Anything I'm saying that may bother you in this dedicated thread comes from a 6 years experience and knowledge of America

Sounds more like a flyer from some wacko leftists Berkeley style gathering.

weshowe · Post by **weshowe** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:07 pm

The tendency to mate to, associate with and emulate people that look like you is a fundamental human social phenomenon.

We have engaged ourselves in a great effort to ban this innate behavior from the greater part of society, such as employment decisions, legal contracts and all fundamental social rights. Opinions on how effective this has been in "correcting the biases" vary greatly.

People that have been around a while see a young buck that was dealing dope and hanging out in a street gang not too many years ago running against a tired old war hero who has given most of his adult life over to politics. With the one choice, change is inevitable, but perhaps the direction it will be made in is not desirable.

There are a lot of people that believe black Americans will benefit significantly from the election of Mr. Obama. Certainly black Americans see it that way, which is a different explanation for their enthusiasm for him as a candidate. How the rest of American society feels about the issue goes back to their opinion of how effective the social policies of the last forty years have been at improving the status of minorities.

Those that feel we have still fallen short support "affirmative action" and support Obama. Those that believe enough special accomodations have been made know that if they elect Obama they will start back to the other direction.

I have no idea how this one will turn out, I think no one can really tell before election day. I don't believe the polls are showing an accurate picture of the election chances for Mr. Obama, because the young, the minorities and the working people (who seem to be on both sides) are notoriously poor at turning their opinions into votes, and only the votes count.

<* Wes *>

KungFooMasta · Post by **KungFooMasta** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:46 pm

And I know accusing the black population of being racist is a typical racist conservative behavior. How about Asians, Indians, Mexicans, and so on? They are not less "racists" than blacks, or whites.
If Obama were let's say Mexican, you'd be accusing Mexicans to be racists. And I'm sure they are actually already supporting him.

I could be wrong, but "Mexican" is not a race, is it? Maybe you mean hispanic, or latin americans?

Ask yourself these questions:

Will the majority of white voters in the US vote on McCain because he is white?
Will the majority of black voters in the US vote on Obama because he is black? (technically he is half white half black, but the media doesn't really mention that very often)

Do you believe both answers to be yes?

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:11 pm

KungFooMasta wrote:Ask yourself these questions

This is not the way things should be seen, that's the problem.

Look at the american History, have a look at this nation with sociological eyes. weshowe has made a relevant portrait of the actual situation.

Today I'm still impressed democrats have chosen him. It shows things have changed in the minds. They looked at the qualities he demonstrated, he has been nominated because he has been judged being "the best".

You don't need to be black to understand that they have been the 2nd class citizens of the nation for centuries. Things have improved those last decades, but still.
This hypothetic president would be some sort of proof the old times of slavery and segregation are gone. If you were black, you would be simply proud, regarding history, to see this bright man running for president, who is implicitly considered part of this same category. It's not just because he's black, but because he is a good candidate.
If Collin Powell was currently running for president, believe me things would be different, even for the African-Americans.

Have you looked at the opinions of others ethnic minorities?
There shouldn't be much difference.

How comes blacks are treated as racists, while The world is behind the same guy? They can see his qualities just like us.

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:14 pm

warmi wrote:And what is a typical conservative racist behavior ? Where do you get this nonsense from ?

from Fox News

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:03 pm

How comes blacks are treated as racists, while The world is behind the same guy? They can see his qualities just like us.

It is irrelevant who "the world" wants to be the president.
You should have noticed that Americans are not like Europeans and many would never accept policies which are prevalent in many European countries.

If you were black, you would be simply proud, regarding history, to see this bright man running for president, who is implicitly considered part of this same category. It's not just because he's black, but because he is a good candidate.

This is a valid argument.
I have no problem discussing it but next time don't bring up stuff like "conservative racism" because it is meaningless and nothing but a smear.

KungFooMasta · Post by **KungFooMasta** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:22 pm

syd, you're mixing things together.

First you said that democrats have chosen him. This is irrelevant in regards to the majority of african americans voting for obama.

Next you talk about blacks being second class citizens, and how they're proud to see a black running for presidency. This is unrelated to any qualities he does or doesn't have; this supports the idea of voting for him based on his social/racial background.

And then you throw in the quote that he is a "good candidate" with no kind of backing as to why that is.

Your graph chart does not distinguish between race, and is not relevant.

So basically you're saying he is a good candidate with great qualities, and that african americans are proud to vote for an african american running for presidency. Sorry but those ideas don't support each other in the context of african americans voting for obama because he is a good candidate with great qualities.

Your tieing unrelated ideas together and drawing a false conclusion. If obama was white, would anything be different?

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:48 pm

warmi wrote:It is irrelevant who "the world" wants to be the president.

fine, replace "the world" by "the majority world wide"

warmi wrote:You should have noticed that Americans are not like Europeans and many would never accept policies which are prevalent in many European countries.

I don't understand the point. Since he has been chosen as the democrat candidate, he surely meets the requirements in his policies. Secondly, what is "European policies" ? there are many different countries in Europe, with very different policies. The only common thing is the economic policy, which is pretty similar to American's.

warmi wrote:next time don't bring up stuff like "conservative racism" because it is meaningless and nothing but a smear.

It is indeed exaggerated, but not completely wrong, especially in the far right wing. it's a taboo.
you have shown yourself in your quick&simplistic conclusions some of it...

syd · Post by **syd** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:05 am

KungFooMasta, you are surely the only one who hasn't understood what I tried to explain [even Warmi got it].

Guys, please stop asking yourselves this kind of disturbing questions. That's really insane... think about it.