Don't say sorry for your English!

[reptor]

Hello

I am not a native English speaker. My native language is Finnish which doesn't really have much in common with English. And I know I certainly make mistakes with the English language when writing to an online discussion forum due to both being sloppy and simply not knowing better. But anyways.

I have noticed that many people at Ogre3D forums (and elsewhere in the www) are constantly saying "sorry, my English is so bad!" and I think it is not at all necessary.

Very often when that happens I can not see that that person is writing particularly bad English.

If you are one of those people, just forget apologizing for your English skill. Chances are good that there actually is not much wrong with your English.

People here realize anyways that there are people from all around the World and there is going to be mitsakes matae al te dime.

At some other forum (non-programming related) I noticed that actually the people whose native language was English often wrote worse English than the ones who didn't speak it natively. Maybe it was just sloppiness from their part. But it's a good example why you actually shouldn't be so sorry.

I'll tell you a little story. I was studying English in an educational institute. One girl in the classroom constantly kept saying "I'm sorry, I speak English so badly!" That was the only thing why I started to pay attention to if she speaks English badly or not - there was nothing in her English skill that made me think that it would be somehow very poor. I eventually got so fed up with her saying sorry constantly, that right after she did it once again, I told her in the classroom "...but don't tell us about it because we won't notice if you don't tell us!" It was a polite form of "STFU about it already" and it did what it was supposed to do; she didn't do it anymore after that. And I like to think that the grade she got from that course was better than what she would have gotten if she had kept telling everyone including the teacher that she can't speak English.

Just something to consider. Trust yourself more and don't be so sorry if you make little mistakes with the language every now and then, I think you will be forgiven like the rest of us are.

[steven]

I find it rather nice when people apologise like this: it shows they are newbies

Strangely native english people never seem to apologise when their english is bad

[Kencho]

Strangely native english people never seem to apologise when their english is bad

Yep, they usually reply things like "Huh? I has g00d english!"

As for me, I use to apologise for my english knowledge (I know I put a lot of grammar mistakes everywhere). In the end, it's my fault for not putting more effort in getting a better knowledge of it, so I feel like should apologise for my laziness. Probably a nonsense, but those are my feelings after all.

[eugen]

One other reason they shouldnt be sorry about their english is because while they use non-native language they do get the message across...the other solution for me would be to speak romanian with everybody in here and i dont think that would be better for our conversations

[reptor]

Yeah, if the message is understood then that is good-enough I think.

At least one time here I have asked someone to improve their writing, in that case what that person wrote did not make any sense at all. In those cases I think it is OK if the person is told that he or she needs to write better English or we are not going to understand.

The Internet is widely in English, actually the whole computer industry uses mostly English I think... so we non-native English speakers are already at a disadvantage and that was not our choice. At least we have studied a foreign language to be able to have discussions here at all. The native English speakers don't have that. They can just expect (whether it is right or wrong) that everyone else bows to them and uses English.

Imagine if you come to Finland and we refuse to speak English with you and insist that you learn Finnish right there and then. That's of course not what we do. But actually, how is that different to the situation here? A foreigner comes to your place and uses your language. The same could be expected in return from you, if you come to our place. The native English speakers have it so easy...

Actually, I think that maybe the native English speakers are losing on this deal - they don't need to learn a new language in order to be able to have discussions here. They lose the richness of learning another language if they don't actively seek to learn a new language. We non-native English speakers are practically forced to learn a new language. I for example had not only one but two foreign languages at elementary school which I had to study in order to complete the school - Swedish was mandatory for me and I could choose the other one and that was English for me. I don't know how this is in the English-speaking countries. Are they forced to learn foreign languages at school?

Also it would be hard for me to work in a white-collar job if I wouldn't understand English. And public jobs in my country require that the applicant is able to use Swedish at an adequate level. I must say I don't speak it well even though I am qualified for that.

Anyways... before I sidetrack this post too much. I think it is not necessary for people to apologize so much for their English skill. Most often when I saw it done, their English was very easy to understand.

[Chris Jones]

They can just expect (whether it is right or wrong) that everyone else bows to them and uses English.

I don't agree with that, for me at least, i only use english websites because i can only speak english (except a very tiny amount of french).

I don't know how this is in the English-speaking countries. Are they forced to learn foreign languages at school?

yep, french mostly i think, although sometimes it's german or spanish.

I had to learn french, although because i never really needed it, i didn't learn it fully, only enough to pass, and then prompty forgot it after school.

[Kojack]

I don't know how this is in the English-speaking countries. Are they forced to learn foreign languages at school?

In australia back when I was in high school, we had to learn french and german. I never really got the hang of french, but I could do maths in german. Now all I remember from either language is a few numbers in the 1-20 range, vaguely. Also a few words of Rammstein lyrics.

These days they also have japanese and italian in schools.

I tried to teach myself latin at one point, but only got as far as saying "there has been a fire there" before giving up. I'm trying japanese too. But I'm much better at programming languages than human languages.

I don't have much respect for native english speakers who write like crap on the net (I'm the kind of guy that uses full spelling and punctuation when sending an sms with my mobile), but I have a lot of respect for anyone who isn't a native english speaker but can make themselves understood, since it's so much better than I can do in any other language.

[ajs15822]

I don't know how this is in the English-speaking countries. Are they forced to learn foreign languages at school?

For most bachelor's degrees here we are required to learn another foreign language (either from credit acquired through two years in High School or two semesters in college). The languages most commonly offered here in Texas are: Spanish, French, German, and (rarely) Japanese. I chose Japanese.

Also, because a certain majority of the Texas population speaks Spanish as a first language, I ended up learning the basics of that language as well so I could better socialize.

[xavier]

Strangely native english people never seem to apologise when their english is bad

As it so often is, too...

[reptor]

It's good to hear that you are forced to learn foreign languages! so we are not the only ones (I didn't think we are).

For us it starts at the elementary school. The Swedish is mandatory. There have been debates about if Swedish should be mandatory or not for as long as I can remember. I chose English as the other foreign language there. So 2 foreign languages must be studied. I think I had German and French as alternatives for the English, maybe even Russian but can't remember now exactly. I did study some German there as well during the last years but only very basics, which I forgot soon after leaving that school.

Then more languages in vocational school if you go to that. But the language courses will be easy there. I had mandatory English and Swedish there to get my 3-year degree. But as I said, it was easy. Actually way too easy.

Those who go to our "high school" instead of the vocational school are also forced to study languages and even more so naturally. Although the rules on that have been loosened a little bit on a decade I think. Nowadays they don't have to write Swedish in the matriculation examination. It was mandatory some years ago. But they have to study the languages anyways. They have to write either Swedish OR heavier math in the matriculation examination. Heavier math is much more demanding than the lighter math so you better be good in math if you want to skip writing the Swedish in the matriculation...

For a Bachelor's degree language studies are mandatory. For me Swedish and English were forced on me and I chose German voluntarily.

For anyone wondering why we Finns are force spoon-fed Swedish. It is a heritage from the time when we were part of the Kingdom of Sweden. It is our 2nd official language after Finnish. I have no problem with being forced to study it but some people do have a problem with that. I would say that most people here whose native language is Finnish are not able to have a meaningful discussion with you in Swedish (this should tell you what kind of attitude a lot of people here have regarding the spoon-feeding of Swedish... it's not effective because people don't want it). Except maybe in the coast where most of the Finnish-Swedish people live. There the native Finnish speakers are much more in touch with the Swedish so they naturally learn it more. I live inland.

I think it is a richness to learn other languages and I would like to learn more. Maybe I should move abroad to get a boost. Maybe somewhere inside the European Union, that would be easiest as I can just move if I want.

[Kojack]

It's good to hear that you are forced to learn foreign languages!

Well, for me it was only in grade 8. Half of the year was german and the other half was french. Then we never touched it again (unless we chose to continue).

From the 2006 census, the most spoken at home non english languages in australia (with total population percentage) are:
- italian (1.6%)
- greek (1.3%)
- arabic (1.2%)
- cantonese (1.2%)
- mandarin (1.1%)
- vietnamese (1.0%)
- spanish (0.5%)

But if I looked it up by region, I'd guess brisbane (where I am) would have the asian languages being more dominant.

[reptor]

There was a time when I was a little bit interested in moving to Australia. I looked up what the requirements are. I learned that I would get points for being fluent in the Finnish language (my native language). That was a bit of a surprise to me.

Skilled – Independent (Migrant) visa (subclass 175) that is.

http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general- ... nguage.htm

Currently I'm not planning to move there. But it's an option I keep open for the future. If I move between countries then it is much more likely to happen inside the European Union though

[Kojack]

Come on over, it's great here!
Assuming you don't intend to play Fallout 3 via legal means that is.

[rafa.gdev]

When I was younger I thought that just learning the meaning of the words and how to pronounce them I would speak english perfectly, like a native
Actually, recently I discovered how challenging is to learn a new language. I'm brazilian, my native language is portuguese (completelly different from english). Some american friends came to Brazil some months ago and I was able to talk to them, so I realized how HARD is to speak like them hehe. Writing is easier, but is also challenging, the way the language is structured is completelly different, therefore sometimes is inevitable to write in a "weird" way. However I won't quit hehe, although I'm not too worried about writing perfectly, I still hope that someday I'll speak english perfectly

ps: kojack, I really want to go to Australia, it seems to be a very nice country (and there are some game companies around), I just need to finish the college (and improve english as well)

[syedhs]

Writing is easier

Some other people find that talking is a lot easier - but this people probably belongs to minority. There was a foreigner friend of mine, he can talk English flawlessly but I cant understand even one sentence of what he wrote. Yeah that bad, but I think that is quite an extreme case. However, there are lots of other people (non-native English speaker) who can write quite well (understandable), but the grammar is totally sux!

I guess the conclusion is this: if you need to talk well in any foreign language, you have to be comfortable first, and worry less. Yes worry less about grammar & correctioness. Sorry for the rather off topic post

[xavier]

I guess the conclusion is this: if you need to talk well in any foreign language, you have to be comfortable first, and worry less. Yes worry less about grammar & correctioness. Sorry for the rather off topic post

That is absolutely true. Any native speaker will be able to sort out the meaning of the words -- so long as most of them get there, the native speakers usually aren't too picky about the order in which they arrive. Some grammatical constructs might come across as slightly amusing to the native speaker, but if the meaning can be understood, that's truly 95% of the battle.

Regardless, I have yet to find any non-native-English-speaking people in these forums (posting in English) that I could not understand. No kidding, it's some of the native English speakers that seem to go out of their way to be unintelligible!

[steven]

What I have the most trouble learning is spoken slang.

The worst are jokes: I usually understand all the joke except the end...
so people think I am humorless because I can speak with them but never laugh at their jokes

[lonewolff]

Does this mean I shouldn't say....

'Sorry for my bad programming'?

[sisyphus]

Referring to English speakers learning other languages...

I lived in Paris for a few years, so I have learned a good bit of French, but I would say that most English speakers do not bother to learn other languages.

One must consider that there is less incentive for native English speakers to learn another language, as most of the world speaks English.

Whereas, if one's native language is only understood by a tiny percentage of the world, then there is more incentive to learn another, more widely spoken, language, such as English, Spanish, or Mandarin.

[reptor]

sisyphus, I agree with what you said.

I am not expecting anyone English to learn my native language Finnish in order to talk to me in business meetings or when I'm traveling abroad. My language is in its distinctive language group and shares little with English, unlike for example Swedish (or other North Germanic languages).

*Although* I find this real example a bit weird:

An American professor of English language who teaches at a Finnish University, and who has lived in Finland for several decades, does not speak Finnish! I call that a wasted opportunity - the guy comes here, marries a Finnish woman (native Finnish speaker), and has a "rest of the career" job in this country, but does not learn our language! Yeah, he is teaching English to the University students... might be the reason why he has been able to avoid learning our language. But come on, you live in a country like Finland for decades without bothering to learn the language... would he not enjoy his stay more if he would have studied the language in the first decade he spent here.

Maybe we are too easy on these people. I mean, what would the French people do to this professor?

It has been discussed here in Finland that we are studying way too much English compared to the rest of the languages, and I agree with that view. But I think I said earlier already that that is because (most) people want to take the easier way through a school. They learn English from TV and computer so at school it isn't so difficult (to know the basics) like the other languages which are totally new to them.

[sisyphus]

I completely agree reptor, I would value the opportunity to live in a foreign country and immerse myself in their language.

I was only in Paris for a few years, but I spent all my time with French people, attempting to improve my French language ability, rather than just hanging out with other English speakers and becoming complacent.

Living in a foreign country is really the only way to properly learn a foreign language, and this professor you talk about is really losing out if he isn't taking advantage of it.

[crioto]

Writing correctly - this respect, to other conference participants. So I always apologize for the fact that I can not write correctly