7,000 USD [Paid] Programmer Needed

[devinrhode]

Hello,
I am looking for a programmer that can code me a imvu style messenger and able to handle oblivion quality. It will also need a face gen as well. If your interested please download and install imvu at http://www.imvu.com and learn all the features. The 3d messenger application you would be making would also need to work with a website such as imvu.com

Here are some video examples.

IMVU engine: http://youtube.com/watch?v=X65eYmp_DR0

Quality of Engine needing Coded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBbW86Hl7wI

Items Menu needing coded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMk4rA59SEw
Face Gen needing coded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgtAIzYjEZU

Post a message with how much money you would want for doing the project.

[xavier]

I'll do it for US$250,000 (not including any middleware that may be needed), but you also have to hire me an art director with at least three shipped AAA titles, and supply him/her with whatever artists and tools he/she says are needed.

[jacmoe]

You really can't go wrong with Xavier.

[Wretched_Wyx]

That was about the best reply I could have imagined Xavier.

[devinrhode]

Budget range = 7 thousand.

[xavier]

Find a different project. You are about two decimal places shy of what you need to do even a decent prototype for what you want.

I would recommend starting with something you have prior experience with.

I speak from experience when I say that a commercial video game venture is not the right first project for someone with no apparent experience in developing a finished video game product.

[PolyVox]

Hi devinrhode,

I realise it depressing, but the truth is developing a video game costs a lot more than you are imagining. I did a quick search to try and find out how much Oblivion cost, but unfortunately didn't find any figures. I expect it was millions, possibly tens of millions.

You see, a programmer will cost you between 50k-100k a year. Let's call it 70k, and you will need at least five for at least two years. That means you can expect to spend 700k on your programmers alone! But, as was pointed out in your other thread, one of the most important aspects in making a good looking game is having the right artwork. So you can probably expect to throw in the same amount for artists, and you're on 1.5 million already.

These are *very much* ball park figures, just intended to make you think about what you are getting into. We haven't even talked building/equipment hire, marketing budget, and lawyers yet.

However, for what it's worth, you are certainly not the first person to have underestimated the size of the task. To be honest, most of us still do it. It seems you know the kind of project you are aiming for (Oblivion/Imvu) so do some research into how much these cost and how long they took.

[devinrhode]

If I spent 40 hours a day every day for a year, studying modeling, coding the engines, animating ect, how many years would it take me at a reasonable estimation to complete this?

[PolyVox]

Well, there are a lot of factors. An experienced team of two people (one programmer and one artist) can make a fun, playable, game in a year. If you have both programming and artistic ability, you could probably write something yourself in 12-18 months. But nothing like Oblivion - we'd be talking small, casual games here.

I can't help but get the impression you've never made a game before, and so you really should start small. It will make it much easier to put things into perspective and know what you are letting yourself in for. Even writing a Tetris clone will take a couple of months, and Oblivion has to 1000 times larger.

Oh, and just so you know you're not the only one with this problem: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7151961.stm

[devinrhode]

I would have better luck producing it myself then wouldn't I? I just need oblivion style graphics. Not a world like oblivion. around 20 maps, maps being the size of an average building, and 1500 different items including exterior items such as room decorations. I just have to get it started and then the members of the community make the rest of the products and maps.

The game I'm developing is strictly 90% of all earnings from it will go to scientific research and human rights so I am thinking I could get some people willing to help for little pay.

This is a must do thing, I have to do it. What would be your advice for my budget range?

[DanielSefton]

If I spent 40 hours a day

If only days were that long, we'd get so much more done.

This is a must do thing, I have to do it.

Why do you have to do it?

It's never impossible, but you have to be realistic. You can't just click your fingers and say you want Oblivion-quality graphics. Always assume the worst. Assume that if you are going to complete this game, you're going to have to sacrifice a few things. In fact, they say that on avarage, a game in production throws out 80% of its original ideas.

That means no Oblivion graphics, take an M out of MMO, scrap the face gen. You begin to see the time and cost drop significantly. Also, I think it would be wise for you to learn game development yourself. I've been working on a similar long-term project for about a year now on my own, and I've not spent a penny. However, I have set multiple targets to aim for along a set timescale (I'm talking at least 5 years). The first is a simple world where players can walk around, chat, with some primitive models (alongside the power of Ogre) and objects can be replicated. I have now done this. Then, my next step is to implement some gameplay, work on server security, and create an editor capable of serializing objects over the world in realtime. You get the idea. Then your life is much easier. And if you decide you need more help, you now have something to show for, and your chances begin to multiply. Also, sometimes the only way for you to realise the difficulty of such a project, is for you to have a stab at it yourself. No one is stopping you, but only time will tell if you have the ability to pull it off.

Managing a project of your scale with no prior experience in game development is suicide. My point that it is not impossible, and you don't need a £10m budget. But you cannot instantly aim to compete with AAA publishers, and you cannot do it without any knowledge of the industry.

Also, spend your hard earned cash elsewhere. It's not going to do you any justice. You'll have it spent is no time for nothing. $7k is a heck of an amount to an avarage person, but in the game development industry, it's like trying to buy a Rolls Royce for a penny. I mean, you can't even afford any decent tools with that amount - SpeedTree alone is even more. This is what PolyVox was saying.

[devinrhode]

I understand what your saying. I have an Idea, What if I pay you to develop the facegen and engine for me and you can keep the code after your done for the engine as long as you dont use it like I am. You would have an extra 7000 in your pocket and a facegen as well as a sweet engine. If your interested let me know.

Sorry I meant weekly. If I did 40 hours weekly basicly as a full time job in a reasonable estimation how many years would it take?

-Devin

[nikki]

Its not hard. Its a lot of fun learning things yourself. I'd begun with Ogre around 3 years ago when I was 12, and learnt a lot. I finished GraLL in August 2007. It didn't cost much. Believe me, it was a lot more fun than playing TF2. I also made many friends, like jacmoe, xavier, nullsquared and the lot. Sometimes I'd even want to stay home and not go out for a weekend to do this stuff. Of course, that was what I thought at first, but I quickly realised that's wrong and went out anyway.

Wanting to do something is just the beginning, really. Go do it. Best of luck!

ps. This is good if the project your aiming to do is what you 'wanted to do yourself', not an assignment or a job or something. In that case, you've got deadlines.

[betajaen]

Your never going to get anyone from here to work for you, not unless you have some serious credentials and give a lot of money up front. If you decide to do it yourself, it will take years to achieve. Either way; it's going to take a lot of time, and a lot of money. Much more than your estimation, and more than your willing to give now.

You should really simplify your idea.

[Tony Richards]

There are several ways for you to get this task done... but offering something to the tune of a two week salary to do a task that will require several people several years to complete is about worthless.

Lets put this in perspective...

I'm involved with a group that has been working on some game middleware for about 2 years. Normally these developers would have cost an average of $60k each per year (with an average of 10 people, that's about $1.2 million)

And all of these developers are working for free...

So, how did I do it? I did a huge chunk of the work myself, and at the beginning I did 100% of the work... I led the charge and people followed, and in exchange, we all agreed that the software should be free for everyone.

Even with all of that free labor, I've still spent over $20k sponsoring conferences, hosting web servers + bandwidth, etc... even a free project is never free (as I'm sure the Ogre core team will tell you).

The moral of the story is this... if you want something done, you're going to have to do it yourself. If you start it, and your goals and intentions are in the right place, people will follow.... otherwise, the only thing people are going to follow is the smell of money.

Obviously you don't have the millions of dollars to fund this, so my suggestion is you buckle down and just start doing it.... stop trying to get someone to do it for you.

Sorry for the rant, but it always disgusts me when I see an "idea guy" that isn't willing to put in the work, isn't willing to front the capital, and expects to reap all of the rewards.

[devinrhode]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Tony how many years do you believe it would take me if i spend 40 hours every week on it?

[Tony Richards]

42

Seriously though, that's not the right question.

The question is "Are you capable of accomplishing it in the first place?"

For every 10% increase in the project's difficulty, it requires a 100% increase in talent and skills.

A very talented, highly skilled programmer with an extremely high IQ and a nearly unlimited pool of resources (books, friends doing research, etc) could probably do the bulk of the programming for a project like this in a couple of years... a team of less talented but still highly skilled programmers with at least one very high IQ person could probably get the job done in a couple of years. Anything less than that and the job will never get done.... never. Period.

I just need oblivion style graphics.

This would take a talented artist and a skilled technical artist working together.... I am neither, and so it would be impossible for me to predict how long it would take.

Not a world like oblivion. around 20 maps, maps being the size of an average building, and 1500 different items including exterior items such as room decorations.

This would require a talented artist, a talented level designer and a skilled technical artist... again, I am not qualified to predict how long it would take.

If you are unskilled, but you happen to be an extremely talented artist, and an extremely talented high IQ programmer, and you spend 5 - 10 years learning how to model, how to create textures, how to program, how to create levels, etc, then I would expect you could have something like what you're talking about completed in two to twenty years (beyond the prerequisite 5 - 10 years of learning).

Not talented? start playing the lottery and maybe you'll get lucky.

[DanielSefton]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Tony how many years do you believe it would take me if i spend 40 hours every week on it?

It all depends on how productive you are during that time. No one can say how long it will take. How long is a piece of string?

I would say that it will take you a year to learn how to program well enough to be able to begin the project yourself, then according to how much progress you make, estimate in your terms how long you think, and multiply it by five. That's how long it will take.

[jacmoe]

@devinrhode:
Since you only have 7K, spend those money wisely.
If you are able to find a programmer or two who is willing to join the project on the condition that you provide them with a license to StemCell and/or a license to Grome terrain editor or some other middleware, that will cost you less than 1K.
On the condition, of course, that those programmers sign a contract, a NDA and get a certain percentage of the revenue.
The artists would be expected to carry their own tools, but you can provide them with a complete CC-pipeline.
I expect StemCell to be able to privide that pipeline to you, as part of your license.

Just an idea.

Expect to work on it for a year or two, before you're able to contract programmers and artists - but you might be lucky.

No matter what, you need to write some solid documents detailing your project.

[reptor]

USD 7,000 isn't really much. It sounds like it is a hobby project and not a serious attempt at anything.

Me, I have only hobby projects and I am not expecting to finish any of the bigger projects. I just do it for fun as long as I think it is fun enough.

If you are serious about your business idea then you should get some people involved who can help you get funding. Preferably someone who understands business instead of being a technical person. Maybe that person could be you. I respect people who can take their business ideas succesful. So I'm giving you thumbs up and don't give up! People are just giving you a reality check here, but don't let it stop you. Just be more realistic about your funding and how many people you need to realize your idea. Don't try to do it all by yourself, I think that's a horrible idea. At best you are going to suffer a serious burnout, and then you'll notice you are not even halfway to finishing your project.

[jacmoe]

A game like Oblivion and a big Hollywood Blockbuster movie can be compared like this:
Big funding, big teams.
And a great game usually takes longer to make than an average film.
Keep that in mind.
It's not really within anyone's reach, if you're not a huge company.

However, if you are willing to put a great deal of effort into making yourself useful to the industry..
Then, if you're lucky, you can become part of that industry, as either a programmer, code monkey or artist.

[nikki]

Learn to program, really. And make 3d models, textures, shaders, understand 3d math, physics and whatnot. Its fun. You can make exactly what you want instead of having to explain to someone else. Really, if you want to do it, and you do it, its a feeling nothing else can give. Nothing. You're doing what you want to. It feels too good.

[devinrhode]

Wow thanks so much everyone for the advice. Everyones advice was more than helpful i appreciated it very much. I think ill be able to sum up an evaluation on how I should take on this project with everyones advice. Thank you again. I would feel guilty to ask another question xD

-Devin

u guys deserve cookie

[nikki]

u guys deserve cookie

Damn... You made me hungry, and its 4 AM over here.