Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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McSwan
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by McSwan »

"The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 2009. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug." :)
Well,

My aim is really just to make games easier to write rather than taking over the world. It's also be nice if same tech could help in things like medical research and solving sustainability issues.

Ie Those big dogs would prob. make better shopping trollies, and wheel barrows, than weapons.

If Skynet was used for positive research, it could've helped humanity in some pretty spectacular ways!
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by stoneCold »

McSwan wrote:If Skynet was used for positive research, it could've helped humanity in some pretty spectacular ways!
Just like splitting atoms?!
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Thrakbad
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by Thrakbad »

Isn't the whole point with Skynet that it was intended for something good (protecting humans) and then turned bad because of it's thinking capability? :wink:
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by McSwan »

Just like splitting atoms?!
Well nuclear weapons are an oddity. They're so dam dangerous no two countries with them have ever gone to war. They're causing peace around the world. I'd be happier without them though.
Isn't the whole point with Skynet that it was intended for something good (protecting humans) and then turned bad because of it's thinking capability? :wink:
"Skynet","I, Robot" etc. are science fiction.
In reality we now have to develop better technology, or a poor understanding of technology ( ie unsustainable practices) will kill us.

Here's an exert from my masters on ethics:
Ethical Concerns

Justification: Overcoming the fear of writing programs that can modify themselves and others.

In recent times, the propaganda stylized bombardment of the belief that one day smart AI systems will one day destroy mankind, has halted all research into programs that modify themselves. There is a misdirected belief that such a program would indeed become smarter than humans, and eventually conquer and kill us all. I believe that instead, a computer program capable of thinking in a way that takes the best of human thinking, and the best of analytical thinking, will pave the way to a utopia for mankind, and indeed may be man-kinds only chance of survival.

Without technology, we will become extinct. At some point, earth will experience a cataclysmic event, which will wipe us out. Whether this be an asteroid, climate change, virus or (nuclear) war, without technology to save us and predict and manage these events, we face a very real prospect of extinction.
1.Humans have a limited intelligence. There will come a point when a technology is so complex, no human will have the mental discipline to learn and understand it, and later utilize it. However, we may be able to build machines and programs that can grow more and more intelligent.
2.Mankind will destroy itself. As humans become more technologically advanced, some will use the technology destructively, due to lack of understanding of the outcomes, or for greed, or maliciousness. The technology in this paper should be guarded against these threats.
3.Mankind will evolve. For the first time that we are aware of in history, mankind is able to build intelligence. Perhaps it is mankind’s destiny to evolve into machines, or for machines to genetically alter humans into far more efficient machines. The rules for natural selection and evolution take no prisoners, we will evolve into something better, or face extinction. (Darwin, 1859)
4.There is no difference where intelligence is derived from. Intelligence can be derived from a machine as well as from biological creatures.
5.There is nothing more dangerous than a little bit of intelligence. For example, oil is not very dangerous, but dig up enough of it and turn it into carbon dioxide, it becomes an extremely dangerous hazard for the environment. Humans are smart enough to use oil, but not smart enough to figure how to stop using it.

For the above reasons, I believe it is dangerous not to develop self-developing programs. Self developing programming are likely to become our only chance of survival.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by Thrakbad »

McSwan wrote:"Skynet","I, Robot" etc. are science fiction.
Well, really? I didn't know that, thanks for sharing... 8)
McSwan wrote:Well nuclear weapons are an oddity. They're so dam dangerous no two countries with them have ever gone to war.
And that's mainly because the ones pulling the trigger are still humans and not computers.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by CABAListic »

Thrakbad wrote: And that's mainly because the ones pulling the trigger are still humans and not computers.
And why would a human not pull the trigger? - Because of self preservation. I am not convinced that an actual artificial intelligence (as in: a self-aware entity) would not develop a similar sense of self-preservation. Therefore I'm not convinced that an AI would act any more recklessly than a human in that situation. But seeing as we have no AIs, that's obviously up to speculation. :)
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by Thrakbad »

That's a tricky question and indeed entirely speculative. But a few thoughts of mine:
1) A computer system somewhere in a bunker wouldn't be nearly as strongly affected by the consequences of a nuclear fallout as the human society would. So it would need to have a sense for preservation of its' creators rather than for itself.
2) Giving any military program a sense for self-preservation could prove catastrophic I could imagine. What if you want to shut it down and it doesn't like the idea of being put to rest? What if a combat drone refuses to follow orders because it considers it's mission a suicide run (and that's exactly what the military develops robots for today).
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by CABAListic »

Well, military leaders have bunkers of their own. The question remains how self-sufficient an AI in a bunker would be. After all, it does need electricity and maintenance, too. Apart from that, who knows what kind of ethics an AI would develop?
As for 2), that is why any such object should not have an actual AI. The moment it is capable of thought, it can come to different conclusions than what you want it to. Plain and simple ;)
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by Thrakbad »

Right...the only way to find out what will happen is, if someone really pulls such a thing off. But then I hope he puts a bit more thought on these things than the 10 minutes I thought about it :wink:
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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Thrakbad wrote:2) Giving any military program a sense for self-preservation could prove catastrophic I could imagine. What if you want to shut it down and it doesn't like the idea of being put to rest? What if a combat drone refuses to follow orders because it considers it's mission a suicide run (and that's exactly what the military develops robots for today).
Intelligence != self-awareness :wink:
You could easily (in sci-fi terms) make an intelligent system that is an "item" like an hammer, because it simply doesn't exists in our meaning of the term... so that it would just do what requested.

In fact for me it's much harder to make a self-aware thing, than an intelligent one, mainly because we don't even know how consciousness works...
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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Yes, but that would mean it would simply fire the missiles when a certain scenario arises, regardless of itself possibly being destroyed. Right now I wouldn't know which one I like worse...
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by _tommo_ »

"a certain scenario" could be everything... I mean, AI isn't "cold" like in movies, it's just completely indifferent to our values.
So, as long you can code it to kill enemies, you could also code it to not hurt its creators... and because it's indifferent, it would execute both as requested...

Of course there is the human error, maybe in coding a reductive scenario... anyway today's AIs can't outsmart even simpler animals, so it looks like wild speculation to me.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by CABAListic »

_tommo_ wrote:Intelligence != self-awareness :wink:
I disagree. I strongly think that (true) intelligence is directly correlated with self-awareness. You can build machines to behave intelligently, sure. In fact, I would say we already do, for some areas anyway. But this is not what I'd call intelligence, it is more close to intuitive decision making.
Of course, it is very difficult to actually define intelligence in any sensible way (or self-awareness, for that matter), so this is not hard science, merely my stand. But I believe that for intelligent thought you need to be able to reflect on past experiences, beyond pure statistical number-crunching algorithms. I don't think this is possible without being aware of yourself.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by McSwan »

Was it ?Hailey?, who, when he discovered Hailey's comet got thrown in Jail for blasphemy. Of course, discovering the comet meant everyone was going to die.
You laugh now, but people were a suspicious bunch back then, as they are now. The pattern repeats, no stem cell research, no Genetic modification, no cloning etc etc, knowledge is too dangerous.

Our Environment is dying because we have technology that we don't know how to use properly. We're on an expiry timer due to unsustainable practices. Either we go back to caveman existence, or learn to use our technology better. As I said before, In reality we now HAVE to develop better technology, or a poor understanding of (and use of) technology ( ie unsustainable practices) will kill us.

Hypothetically:
Also, let's look at it from a evolutionary perspective.

Just say say a computer did destroy all humans. A superior species has caused another species to become extinct. It's the process of natural selection that's been happening for the last 3.5 billions years.

Besides a computer system that is capable of destroying all humans, would probably be able to re-create humans anyway, or any other life form it so chose to make. Maybe it could even make a better version of us. At the very least I would expect it to be able to replicate at some level.

So what does this mean? Is it inevitable that evolutionary fitness will become solely based on intelligence, due to the fact that intelligence can learn to control the Genetic Algorithm of life ? In that perspective we are but a jumping point in evolution, just like the fish that walked on land.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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McSwan wrote:Besides a computer system that is capable of destroying all humans, would probably be able to re-create humans anyway, or any other life form it so chose to make. Maybe it could even make a better version of us. At the very least I would expect it to be able to replicate at some level.
Uh, I disagree...it's way easier to destroy than to create as we all know. There's also the possibility that we are being wiped out accidentally.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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CABAListic wrote:
_tommo_ wrote:Intelligence != self-awareness :wink:
I disagree. I strongly think that (true) intelligence is directly correlated with self-awareness. You can build machines to behave intelligently, sure. In fact, I would say we already do, for some areas anyway. But this is not what I'd call intelligence, it is more close to intuitive decision making.
Of course, it is very difficult to actually define intelligence in any sensible way (or self-awareness, for that matter), so this is not hard science, merely my stand. But I believe that for intelligent thought you need to be able to reflect on past experiences, beyond pure statistical number-crunching algorithms. I don't think this is possible without being aware of yourself.
No, it has been shown from some studies that even humans can take intelligent/logical decisions while not having self consciousness... for example (at least for my teacher, maybe i'm wrong :D), there's a really rare disorder that "kills" the self-awareness of one side of your view.
Well, persons in this state can fear, avoid, recognize things on that side, and even take decisions basing on them, but they can't explain why they behaved that way...
So IMHO self-awareness is something "on top" of the intelligence, that completes and leads it somewhere; it's true that art, literature or science wouldn't exist without it... but anyway, i think that something could do very strong and logical reasoning even without self-awareness, if asked to do them.
And this is what we should research, you wouldn't want to use as slave a robot that can feel, or not?
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by CABAListic »

Well, if you remember the name of the disorder, I'd be very interested. It sounds like it might be a border case, so it might well help me gain some new insights. :)

And yes, I never said I actually think it's a good idea to invent a self-aware AI. I just find it interesting to think about how it might behave :) Then again, in most science fiction which deals with human-created AIs, they were usually an "accident" of some kind, so you never know :D
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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I searched the exact name also for the previous post, but i wasn't able to find it... anyway also Sleepwalking is a state where a person can do "normal" things without being completely conscious.
So for me a machine could learn strong logical processes without effectively converging its "thoughts" into a single conscious stream... my point is, how much is probable that at one point the self-awareness "emerges" spontaneously?
From what we know today, it could be a sure consequence, or could be very difficult, or impossible at all... The only thing we can be sure is that coscience and intelligence are inter-related, but we don't know how much.

Anyway it's sure interesting to think about a self-aware machine, also because its discover could give deep insights on how we "work"... i hope that there won't be any "accidents" soon :D
Intel and Google are really convinced that a machine will be able to surpass us in the next 50 years... :?
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

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Hm, I'm not completely sure that sleepwalking is a sign for unawareness of one's self. After all, in normal sleep we forget most of our dreams after waking, but that doesn't mean that we weren't *actively* dreaming and aware of ourselves during that phase, we merely forget. Or maybe sleep-walkers *are* unaware, but from what I know about it, the stuff they do is (usually) routine and doesn't require much thought. Which goes back to the question of where intelligence begins :)
Hm, somehow this question is messing with my head :)
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by Quall »

I hope the PCs stay stupid and we always have to tell them how to do things. Job Security ftw.
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Re: Functional and object oriented programming both suck

Post by jacmoe »

Quall wrote:I hope the PCs stay stupid and we always have to tell them how to do things. Job Security ftw.
Having watched Terminator III just now, I agree with you. :)
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