The Games Industry: the good, the bad and the ugly

[xavier]

One of my own personal goals for the project was to create a project that people could go right into game companies from. We have had one former member work on a commercial MMO, and another was recently offered a job at a game studio. This offer did not work out, and in fact, was so terrible that I have to wonder about the state of the industry. With so many dev houses closing down recently, there must be a surplus of developers. This could be a factor in why the company, who makes AAA titles, made him an offer that was less than half of his current salary, and 40% under the industry average for starting people in that position. This individual happens to be the most talented individual on the project, and if he gets an offer that low, what are the chances that someone else is going to do better? They are probably not very good. The fact of the matter is that Project Wish would need to be recognized by game development companies as something more than just a “mod.” In order for that to happen, we would have to actually release something amazing. I know we are fully capable of that, but the time it will take is more than most are willing to wait, myself included.

Your forums won't let me register, so I'll have to answer here.

You expressed confusion as to why someone who worked on your project was offered a salary in the industry at a much lower rate than the standard.

The reason is experience. I know you thought a lot of your project, but to a hiring manager and lead, what is it other than either a code sample or entry in a portfolio? I realize that CoS is the same thing, and I have the same intent -- to provide a place for someone who wants to get into games a place to get some experience in how a commercial game is put together. Like you said (in not so many words), until something is released (and to be honest, it doesn't have to be "something amazing", just something, that proves you can complete a project that you start), the project "doesn't exist".

I've been a lead for over a year now, which means I've had to interview a lot of people. Granted, there are plenty of people with a lot of "industry experience" who aren't worth a damn, but it's still a HUGE risk to take on someone who has never worked in an actual production studio before. As a lead, I have to consider how much hand-holding that person is going to need *from me* (or at the least, from other senior engineers) until they are at a level of productivity and reliability that the other engineers are at. That is why, even with "side-project", "community" or "mod" experience on your resume, unless you have worked on a completed title that has actually shipped, you really don't know what it takes to make a commercial game on a schedule.

The company that gave your contributor that offer you found so insulting, *was* giving that person an opportunity, whether or not you like its terms. When I started out in the industry, I had a fair bit of time in CoS under my belt, plus about 15 years of general commercial software engineering experience. I still got an offer that was roughly $15K under the average (part of it was relocation), but I perfectly understood why that was. I took the offer because I wanted to do games, and now 3 years later, I am making roughly twice what I started at with that company.

Anyone who starts out in the industry is going to go the same route. You don't start at the top salary, you don't even start at the average or median -- those are averages or medians -- they factor in all of those people who *have* worked in the biz long enough to make that money. When you start in the industry, regardless of what you think of yourself, *you are a newb* and will be compensated accordingly. So if one decides to change careers and wants to get into games, you have to accept the fact that *you will take a pay cut* to start with, but if you indeed are worth a damn and perform well, your pay scale will rise rather rapidly. We don't really care what you "were" making in your former industry -- it's irrelevant to what you would be paid in a game studio, and like I said, you would have to make the decision whether the opportunity was worth the cost.

As an example, I think rather highly of the potential of a few of the members of this community (and those individuals can expect PMs when we start hiring again), but each of them would still start out less than the average, and like any new hire, with the standard 90-day probation period.

There's nothing wrong with the industry. Studios start and fail all the time, and layoffs and hirings happen all the time. When a lot of layoffs happen at once, those studios in the position to hire can afford to be more selective and yes, the job market will tighten.

[Jabberwocky]

I mostly agree with everything Xavier said. But all studios and interviewers are going to be a bit different, and I wanted to offer a slightly different perspective on hobby game experience.

I've done a fair amount of interviewing for game studio positions of all types. When hiring for an entry level position, I always gave a lot of value to a candidate's hobby projects. To me, it demonstrates ambition and interest, plus gives a person an idea of what they're getting into (game dev isn't always as glorious as it seems from the outside). To me, a hobby project has particular value if:
1. You can show me something that works (doesn't have to be perfect or complete), and
2. You can talk intelligently about the things you implemented and learned.

We hired a handful of new people with no game industry experience based largely on their hobby projects. When asked by someone outside the industry how to get a job, my usual response is to start a hobby project, a game or mod depending on your skill set. (Preferably something small you can finish - Xavier's criticism of Project Wish may be valid - I don't know how much of this project ever actually worked.)

That being said, 2 years of work on a hobby project isn't ever going to equate to 2 years of industry experience, and don't expect it to. But it might be enough to get your foot in the door.

Unfortunately, there's no doubt that current economic situation is going to make getting a job in the industry a lot harder, and salary offers likely a little lower.

I realize that CoS is the same thing, and I have the same intent -- to provide a place for someone who wants to get into games a place to get some experience in how a commercial game is put together.

What is CoS?

As an example, I think rather highly of the potential of a few of the members of this community (and those individuals can expect PMs when we start hiring again)

For sure, there's some amazing talent around here. Several times I've assumed someone in the community was an experienced industry game developer based on the knowledge displayed in their posts, then found out later they were students.

[Jerky]

Your forums won't let me register, so I'll have to answer here.

Thanks for pointing that out. In choosing a new skin, I forgot just how many modifications I had made. I believe I have fixed the registration page. I think it was missing the Bot-Check question, which is required.

You expressed confusion as to why someone who worked on your project was offered a salary in the industry at a much lower rate than the standard.

Actually, to be clear, I wasn't confused, I was disappointed. I may have not conveyed that clearly though. It was more of a sad realization and me expressing some concerns about the industry we were fighting to get into. This programmer was offered half of his current entry-level salary in another industry, and he was about a year out of college at the time.

The reason is experience. I know you thought a lot of your project, but to a hiring manager and lead, what is it other than either a code sample or entry in a portfolio? I realize that CoS is the same thing, and I have the same intent -- to provide a place for someone who wants to get into games a place to get some experience in how a commercial game is put together. Like you said (in not so many words), until something is released (and to be honest, it doesn't have to be "something amazing", just something, that proves you can complete a project that you start), the project "doesn't exist".

Yes, I agree with this take on it, and I appreciate you sharing it. I don't think it's how it should be, but then again, the games industry is flooded right now with people looking for work. This offer was made and turned down before the current recession, however (depending when you say it started). It definitely was before the market crashed and the lay-offs began.

We also had a designer go work for Auran about 4-6 months before they went bankrupt. That one was bad luck/timing. Bankrupt or not, though, he saw so many bad practices there that it disillusioned him to games, so he came back to the states and took a job outside of games.

I've been a lead for over a year now, which means I've had to interview a lot of people. Granted, there are plenty of people with a lot of "industry experience" who aren't worth a damn, but it's still a HUGE risk to take on someone who has never worked in an actual production studio before. As a lead, I have to consider how much hand-holding that person is going to need *from me* (or at the least, from other senior engineers) until they are at a level of productivity and reliability that the other engineers are at. That is why, even with "side-project", "community" or "mod" experience on your resume, unless you have worked on a completed title that has actually shipped, you really don't know what it takes to make a commercial game on a schedule.

That's definitely understandable. Again, projects are a dime a dozen. Good projects, however, are not. I viewed PW as a stand-out in some respects, but I guess it would take some homework on the hiring individual(s) or some sort of award system to help them see the difference.

The company that gave your contributor that offer you found so insulting, *was* giving that person an opportunity, whether or not you like its terms. When I started out in the industry, I had a fair bit of time in CoS under my belt, plus about 15 years of general commercial software engineering experience. I still got an offer that was roughly $15K under the average (part of it was relocation), but I perfectly understood why that was. I took the offer because I wanted to do games, and now 3 years later, I am making roughly twice what I started at with that company.

Anyone who starts out in the industry is going to go the same route. You don't start at the top salary, you don't even start at the average or median -- those are averages or medians -- they factor in all of those people who *have* worked in the biz long enough to make that money. When you start in the industry, regardless of what you think of yourself, *you are a newb* and will be compensated accordingly. So if one decides to change careers and wants to get into games, you have to accept the fact that *you will take a pay cut* to start with, but if you indeed are worth a damn and perform well, your pay scale will rise rather rapidly. We don't really care what you "were" making in your former industry -- it's irrelevant to what you would be paid in a game studio, and like I said, you would have to make the decision whether the opportunity was worth the cost.

This is very sound advice. I didn't find it insulting for the reasons you think. I'll explain below.

As an example, I think rather highly of the potential of a few of the members of this community (and those individuals can expect PMs when we start hiring again), but each of them would still start out less than the average, and like any new hire, with the standard 90-day probation period.

There's nothing wrong with the industry. Studios start and fail all the time, and layoffs and hirings happen all the time. When a lot of layoffs happen at once, those studios in the position to hire can afford to be more selective and yes, the job market will tighten.

Just because it's business as usual, doesn't mean something is not wrong either . With the EA wives saga a few years ago, among many many others, it is clear that the games industry is not all that healthy an industry to work in. I realize that is a generalization, which doesn't hold true in many cases, but being in the industry actually biases you to whatever response you might have against this line of thinking. Was it right for you to have to take a paycut? Sure, that's standard if you switch industries. I won't argue that. But an offer of 35k for a programmer, who does have some experience, both with games and other work? Horrible. I got offered 35k at my first Network Engineering job with no degree, and only some experience. Games can be a highly profitable market, at least according to all the stats. I realize it is also very risky and volatile, but that's no reason to take it out on the workers.

Anyways, thanks for sharing. It was very enlightening, and I hope it will help others.

[Jerky]

Almost forgot. Thanks Jabberwocky for that other take on the situation. I am glad to know that these types of project do count for something. It is good to see these two perspectives. I think it points out that it is also important to have contacts and other ways of getting in. If you're trying to get in, you might be getting interviewed by someone who doesn't care much for projects, and you might get someone who does take notice. I guess the best advice would be to try and make your chances the best by doing everything you can by knowing what it takes to get in.

[xavier]

When hiring for an entry level position, I always gave a lot of value to a candidate's hobby projects. To me, it demonstrates ambition and interest, plus gives a person an idea of what they're getting into (game dev isn't always as glorious as it seems from the outside).

From my perspective, it shows that they are probably not a clock-watcher and have an actual interest in what they are doing. It's the "it's not a job if you love your work" scenario.

But hobby-level coding is not enough to make someone not entry-level if they have never had experience in the industry.

I see it as no different than if I decided that I wanted to go make CPUs for a living -- yes, I have an electrical engineering degree, and I may even have done some hobby-level FPGA programming on the side, but Intel is still going to consider me an entry-level engineer. They just have the additional bit of information that this isn't just a lark -- that I actually have a genuine interest in the work. It might make for a shorter probationary period, but it's not going to affect my starting salary, which is what Jerky was lamenting most in his blog entry.

[xavier]

But an offer of 35k for a programmer, who does have some experience, both with games and other work? Horrible. I got offered 35k at my first Network Engineering job with no degree, and only some experience.

Out of curiosity -- this offer wasn't in the Bay Area I take it? Not even startups around here would try to get away with offering that little (that's basically below the poverty line in this area).

[Jerky]

But an offer of 35k for a programmer, who does have some experience, both with games and other work? Horrible. I got offered 35k at my first Network Engineering job with no degree, and only some experience.

Out of curiosity -- this offer wasn't in the Bay Area I take it? Not even startups around here would try to get away with offering that little (that's basically below the poverty line in this area).

I'd love the mention the company, but doubt I should. It wasn't Bay area though. It was in the Great Lakes area, where the cost of living is lower. Even so, it was a horrible offer. The company makes AAA games, and the project was another AAA title.

[xavier]

Bear in mind too, all offers are just that -- offers. They are all negotiable.

I know that out here you are likely to start out around 50K, maybe 55. 35 sounds like the very low end of reasonableness for that area (I am from SW Ohio so I have an idea of what pay scales are in the area) -- did this person try to negotiate up or did he just say screw it?

[Jerky]

Hmm, I just went back through my logs to make sure I had my facts straight. The team had just finished a AAA title and offered him 30k. They were in WI, iirc, if that changes the cost of living and salaries any. He asked to negotiate, and that's how it went to like 35k. He then turned it down.

I just explained to someone else some of my other thoughts on the issue, so I'll add that in here, although we should probably split the topic now :

In all my observations of the games industry I can't say I am excited of the prospect to go work for any company. I know the job could be immensely fun, but jobs are still jobs, and they serve the purpose of supporting a family. To me, most anyone defending it has grown numb to how it really is(<- generalization from my point of view). In order to enjoy working in the industry, one would easily be able to overlook flaws that are more easily seen from the outside. That being said, I still wish to work in it one day, but I believe my path will be as an indie, getting in by releasing my own game and starting my own company. I can't see myself taking any other approach, especially with what I've seen this past year.

It's unfortunate that people can be seen to be worth less than they really are. In my entire adulthood, that is one thing I seem to not be able to abide: some people telling others that they are not worth what they truly are. I have left 3 jobs in the last 10 years because of that exact thing, although this isn't in the games industry. I see people in games accepting it because some feel blessed to be there (they might not have degrees, or they somehow don't see themselves being able to work anywhere else, either out of preference or lack of confidence). I was a born leader, so my role with my project came naturally. I will never tell someone to do something that won't bring them the most benefit possible. With that in mind, I couldn't tell anyone on my team to work on PW so they could take a job in the games industry. It felt wrong, so that is when I began to lose my desire to keep pushing the project ahead (sometime in the middle of 2008, ironically, shortly after my presentation at the GEEX).

I guess the split topic should have the name "The Games Industry: the good, the bad and the ugly"

[_tommo_]

DOH.
This is completely OT, but this thread remembered me that 35.000$ per year are a damn good offer here in italy, for a "newbie"
In fact most people would consider good a 20.000€ offer...

[jacmoe]

DOH.
This is completely OT, but this thread remembered me that 35.000$ per year are a damn good offer here in italy, for a "newbie"
In fact most people would consider good a 20.000€ offer...

You have to take the Big Mac Index into consideration here. You really can't compare salaries across regions.

[_tommo_]

The "joke" here is that life in USA actually costs less, for example the Big Mac menu is 6.90€ here, and it should be way more than in USA.
so with 20.000€ you are in serious trouble to mantain even yourself. But this would be a decent offer for new graduates.
In fact, after comparing, the situation is even worse...

[xavier]

In all my observations of the games industry I can't say I am excited of the prospect to go work for any company. I know the job could be immensely fun, but jobs are still jobs, and they serve the purpose of supporting a family. To me, most anyone defending it has grown numb to how it really is(<- generalization from my point of view). In order to enjoy working in the industry, one would easily be able to overlook flaws that are more easily seen from the outside. That being said, I still wish to work in it one day, but I believe my path will be as an indie, getting in by releasing my own game and starting my own company. I can't see myself taking any other approach, especially with what I've seen this past year.

My experience has been the opposite, really -- I think you may have one or two inexplicable outliers coloring your view of the state of the games industry. I've worked for three different studios and in each case, everyone who worked there was getting paid a fair salary. I can't explain the situation you've described because I just don't have the details, but to take one or two anecdotes and paint an entire industry with them, is also a bit unfortunate.

Bear in mind that starting your own games company may sound like fun and the "only way to go", but all of those companies that folded recently...were founded by people who thought the same way. The actual quality of the product is not nearly as important as business development and making sure you can stay around to make more games. And for an independent studio (read: one that does not control the distribution of its titles), that means making compromises on your principles all the time. The indie studio that can continue making its own IP, without interference from some nagging publisher (who usually is the one paying the bills to make the game), is really a pipe dream. As soon as you let someone else give you money to make a game, you make that game by their rules, whims and desires.

In other words, you had better be not only independently wealthy, but have millions in "mad money" to burn, if you intend to "buck the system" in this industry (not saying you are, but want to make sure everyone understands how it works as an indie )

That said, something like a Project Wish, assuming you intended to self-publish (presumably over the Interwebs) is about the only way to avoid having to "make someone else's game" -- but then, you had better have a ton of money up front to support the development effort. Bear in mind that even Blizzard had to make someone else's game (or at least allow someone else to have come form of control over the direction of the game they were making) before they had the financial wherewithal to make WoW.

[Nauk]

If you look at Tibia, they started out indy, made their own game, published it all by themselves via the internet and they are right now one of the bigger MMOs out there, if not even among the top ten or close with the number of worldwide subscriptions.

http://www.cipsoft.com/about/index.php? ... ion=about1

However, thanks to a thoughtful, gradual development, a large fan community and to our experience of many years we managed to work profitably from the start. This way, we have managed to maintain our autonomy from external investors ever since.

Year - Turnover (Euro) - Number of Employees (end of year)
2001.......27,595..................4
2002.......151,049................4
2003.......815,908................7
2004.......2,763,784.............16
2005.......4,047,663.............22
2006.......4,778,761.............27
2007.......6,266,947.............36

And I bet they are not the only ones out there that actually made "the pipe dream" come true. Of course if you never dare take on it, the dream will never come true and you will never know.

[lonewolff]

And I bet they are not the only ones out there that actually made "the pipe dream" come true. Of course if you never dare take on it, the dream will never come true and you will never know.

This is true. It can't possibly happen if you dont try.

[jacmoe]

And I bet they are not the only ones out there that actually made "the pipe dream" come true. Of course if you never dare take on it, the dream will never come true and you will never know.

This is true. It can't possibly happen if you dont try.

Guys. I don't think anyone could have tried harder than Jerky.
So save your breath.

[xavier]

And I bet they are not the only ones out there that actually made "the pipe dream" come true. Of course if you never dare take on it, the dream will never come true and you will never know.

As I mentioned, if you have the money up front and it comes with no strings attached, it's possible.

[Jerky]

My experience has been the opposite, really -- I think you may have one or two inexplicable outliers coloring your view of the state of the games industry. I've worked for three different studios and in each case, everyone who worked there was getting paid a fair salary. I can't explain the situation you've described because I just don't have the details, but to take one or two anecdotes and paint an entire industry with them, is also a bit unfortunate.

Well, let's be completely honest and say that both your and my views are a small part of a larger industry. My view could be accurate because I have an unbiased outsider's perspective. Couple that in with the industry people I know at studios and that makes it possible to be just as valid as yours. It's equally possible that, because you're on the inside that you know more about the industry. My knowledge of most insiders, however, is that they stay pretty locked up while working on projects. That's not to say they are oblivious, just that they are focused on certain things, so aren't as likely to see everything there is to see. On the same token, I'm sure there is much that goes on "inside the industry" that escapes my gaze. So the chances that somehow you're able to rise above that trend is only equal to the chances that my assessment could be accurate. By my reckoning, we come out even, and its up to everyone else to make up their mind. My view is definitely more cynical, while yours sounds more grounded. You're assuming, however, that my view is fed by emotion, because of the jaded tales I've heard. This is not correct, as I try to stay grounded in fact, and not just speculation and rumor. I am, after all, not just your average "hobbyist" kiddie .

Bear in mind that starting your own games company may sound like fun and the "only way to go", but all of those companies that folded recently...were founded by people who thought the same way. The actual quality of the product is not nearly as important as business development and making sure you can stay around to make more games. And for an independent studio (read: one that does not control the distribution of its titles), that means making compromises on your principles all the time. The indie studio that can continue making its own IP, without interference from some nagging publisher (who usually is the one paying the bills to make the game), is really a pipe dream. As soon as you let someone else give you money to make a game, you make that game by their rules, whims and desires.

In other words, you had better be not only independently wealthy, but have millions in "mad money" to burn, if you intend to "buck the system" in this industry (not saying you are, but want to make sure everyone understands how it works as an indie )

That's a little bit funny. I thought I had the corner on the "rash generalization" market, but apparently, you just bought some stock in it as well. "All of those companies that folded recently ... thought the same way" is what I consider a rash generalization. If you still want to hold to that point, then I'd like to hear a list of them and why you say that, because I respectfully disagree.

Also, being as humble as I am (<-sarcasm), I would put a wager down that I know more about making an indie startup than most indie startups. Having already worked on 3 startups in other technology industries, I would also think that I have gained a bit of experience in that area as well. There's nothing like starting a business and then having to close it to get you to either quit, or learn so it's better the next time.

That said, something like a Project Wish, assuming you intended to self-publish (presumably over the Interwebs) is about the only way to avoid having to "make someone else's game" -- but then, you had better have a ton of money up front to support the development effort. Bear in mind that even Blizzard had to make someone else's game (or at least allow someone else to have come form of control over the direction of the game they were making) before they had the financial wherewithal to make WoW.

I'll assume that when you say that I don't want to make "someone else's game," that you mean to say that I sound an awful lot like other indie idealists. This also has the connotation that because I am an idealist, I am also missing the mark somewhere (as is the common perception of idealists). Was that a fair interpretation of what you intended?

I'll definitely give you that I am an idealist. Why would I deny that, when the truth is, I'm quite proud of it? I rather think that World of Goo did a damn fine job this Holiday season coming in with the top Wii-ware title and the #2 seller of PC games on Amazon.com. I'm pretty sure Crayon Physics is doing a nice job as well. I guess I better make it clear at this point, before you claim I'm changing tactics, that because PW is closed, I no longer am interested in an indie MMO. This is why I am now using these smaller indie titles in my arguments, because that is something that I think holds a lot of credence toward idealism. The argument now is whether or not indie idealism is a good way to get into the industry under your own power. I believe the aforementioned two examples are more than enough to swing the vote to my side and say that pipe dreams are real. And those are just a couple from the many in the past year.

[Jerky]

And I bet they are not the only ones out there that actually made "the pipe dream" come true. Of course if you never dare take on it, the dream will never come true and you will never know.

This is true. It can't possibly happen if you dont try.

Guys. I don't think anyone could have tried harder than Jerky.
So save your breath.

Lol, thanks jacmoe. I'm not sure they were hinting anything to me, but thanks regardless.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves. No need to defend against this with words. If I make something of myself then I will have proved that I picked myself up and moved on to better things.

Regarding PW becoming a reality one day: I haven't played an MMO since the Wish Beta, and I am not sure I ever will again. I noticed while working on PW that I didn't have any desire to play them, and definitely didn't have the time to waste. Honestly, I had an ethical dilemma on my hands knowing that I wanted to make something that would waste people's time. On the other hand, I had the desire to prove that I could be successful where others said I could not. This allowed me to delay facing the ethical part of the dilema. Now, with my new goals in hand, I don't have to face any dilemas. I can still become a success and not even have to face the ethics.

On a second token, Darkfall on paper has/had a lot of what we were working toward (and ironically, we almost named PW Lightfall, before we knew about DF). I am not sure that I need to make PW, or if it would even fit. That being said, there will always be a place for an indie/hobbyist MMO, regardless of whether it is a copycat. The open source world loves to flock to their own, just look at the reception of the linux version of goo. I think, however, that for me, its time to pass the torch as I focus on goals that don't require me to trust in so many other people to achieve. An MMO is not a one-man show afterall (I'm not implying that PW was a one-man show )