Buying 3d models.

[mkultra333]

I'm thinking of buying some 3d models to save some time (and get better quality). I've looked around at a few sites like turbosquid, 3dexchange and others, but I've noticed they all seem to have really bad license agreements. Primarily, the seller retains copyright. They allow you to use the models in projects, but I can only see legal headaches if such a model becomes part of your brand but the copyright is held by someone else.

It looks as if most these sites are aimed more at attracting modellers rather than buyers, which seems odd.

Does anyone know of sites that sell models but don't encumber them with painful licenses?

[jacmoe]

What's wrong with copyright?
You buy models made by an artist who holds the copyright to his own art.

The only other way is to make the art yourself.

[mkultra333]

The only other way is to make the art yourself.

Or use public domain models, or hire a modeler to build you some stuff and give you the copyright.

You buy models made by an artist who holds the copyright to his own art.

Looks like a potential problem to me, though I'm not a lawyer. First line of the wikipedia article on copyright says:

Copyright is the exclusive right granted to the author of an original work, including the right to authorise or ban the publication, distribution and adaptation of that work.

That seems a pretty nasty sword to have hanging over your head if you include the model in a commercial game.

[mkultra333]

I've noticed a further problem with these licenses. They tend to say the model can be used in games, but that the model must be compiled into the project and not removable by third parties. For instance, from exchange3d.com:

Every effort must be made by the third party to protect the 3D content in a pre-rendered production environment. If the content can simply be removed from the production by the third party’s end user, this breaches the terms of this agreement.

That's fine for a closed source project, but mine is open source. The end user can easily remove the model because they have complete access to the codebase, it's impossible to encrypt or compile the model in any way that the end user can't easily circumvent by modifying the code.

So, as I said in the opening post, anyone know of any more permissive 3D model sites?

[Kojack]

Most of those sites are intended for rendering movies and stuff, not games, which is why things like not letting anyone else get access to the model is a standard clause.
For example turbosquid says that content can be used in games only if the content is in a proprietary format and can't be extracted from the game without reverse engineering it.
I'm not sure how Ogre's mesh format fits into that. It's not really a proprietary format (other engines like Irrlicht and I think Visual3D use it), and no reverse engineering is needed since it's an open format. You'd have to make a custom archive or mesh format to hide the model. Not very open source compatible.

[jacmoe]

That is just boo!
A Blender scene doesn't become GPL just because Blender itself is, and a Word document isn't under the MS EULA either.
So your argument doesn't hold water.

[jacmoe]

=)

[mkultra333]

I don't know, Boo made a lot of sense. Plus, 90% of these artists are probably in other countries so the procedures for suing me would be a nightmare, they probably won't bother. Thanks JustBoo.

[jacmoe]

Alright, let's imagine that you are an artist.
Don't you want some intellectual copyright over your own work?
Boo doesn't make much sense in the common sense department - he's just accurately describing how rotten the legal system is.
He didn't advise you to be rotten as well.

[mkultra333]

He didn't advise you to be rotten as well.

Hmm... but he was very persuasive. You can't play an actor on TV without at least some understanding of law. Besides, after they sue me once I can then use the models with impunity on future projects because of Double Jeopardy. I saw that in a movie.

[mkultra333]

Jokes aside, yeah, sure artists want to own the copyright, but that's not how it happens. The artists who design art on any game out there don't own the copyright, the company that hired them does. The licenses these 3d model sites offer don't work well for games, especially open source games, so I think there's a niche there for artists who know what indie game developers need. I just wonder if this niche is already being catered for.

[jacmoe]

Yes, it is catered for, AFAIK.

The Game Creators:
http://gdk.thegamecreators.com/?gf=store
And Arteria:
http://www.arteria3d.com/

I've seen others as well.

They usually don't sell on turbosquid etc - for the same reasons you're not buying from them, I guess.

[justinandrews]

The artists who design art on any game out there don't own the copyright, the company that hired them does.

This is a standard clause in nearly all employment contracts. You have to be careful, because a lot of contracts try and cover work that you do out of hours as well.

[jacmoe]

Of course. If you're working for a company, the company owns your work. They're paying you for it, aren't they?

[mkultra333]

Thanks for the links Jacmoe. Unfortunately the GameCreator store thing is only accessible by using FPSCreator, you can't even see the terms and conditions for the models until after you install FPSCreator.

Arteria doesn't have much stuff, although their Industrial Pack looked ok, I could probably use bits of that. I can't seem to find any license info though, I'll have to pester them next time they have the live chat running.

[jacmoe]

If you're quick enough, you can find one in the General Discussion.
The terms sounds a lot like the terms you want:
Copyright is theirs, you can use it only in your game. Selling them to others is not allowed.
UOK_games (IIRC)

[mkultra333]

If you're quick enough, you can find one in the General Discussion.
The terms sounds a lot like the terms you want:
Copyright is theirs, you can use it only in your game. Selling them to others is not allowed.
UOK_games (IIRC)

Had a look. Horses and butterflies aren't quite what I'm after. It seems virtually all these services offer the same kind of deal, all worded a little differently, that they keep the copyright. From one POV I can see why, they don't want someone buying the model once then onselling it themselves or giving it away free.

Unfortunately the potential legal mess of someone else owning the copyright of my game assets has put me right off the idea, so it's a lose-lose for both the modelers and me.

[Kojack]

One option is try some local universities / colleges which have games or 3d art courses. Many students would probably be willing to make some cash doing contract modelling. You get a unique model (not something turbo squid has sold to 50 other games delevopers), they get to put your game on their resume, and you could specify in a contract that you own the rights to the final models.

[mkultra333]

The uni student idea isn't bad. I think I may try as much as possible to make my own models though, just in case. JustBoo, that Pink Floyd example is exactly the kind of pain I want to avoid. It isn't even the idea that they might win, just the idea that at some stage some oppurtunist might decide to make life difficult.