What happend with Ogre?

Post by **Kojack** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:42 am

It would be nice if we didn't have C4 Engine ads on our home page.

lonewolff · Post by **lonewolff** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:46 am

LOL - I noticed that too

Post by **spacegaier** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:42 am

The new website it planned to have an image carousel on the start page where we can show off some of the recent fancy images. Although probably not a fullscreen one...

mmixLinus · Post by **mmixLinus** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:33 am

frostbyte wrote: and what an amazing galery it was.... made me delete unity3d from my hard drive and call epic for my money back....

agree

Klaim · Post by **Klaim** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:27 pm

This thread is derailing in unexpected directions

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:10 pm

This thread is derailing in unexpected directions

yes it does, guess those issues were ignored for far too long, and now it is surfacing...
it is good to have an involved community that cares about stuff...
10 minds are better than one... opinions/suggestions/help are always welcomed...

This is what I see when I see something run by open source fanboys.

their are exceptions ....
http://libgdx.badlogicgames.com/
https://github.com/libgdx/libgdx-site

It would be nice if we didn't have C4 Engine ads on our home page.

It would be nice if we didn't have ads at all...ads make OGRE website feel like a cheap redirection( to unity??? ) page...
so my question is how much money are this ads making...?
maybe we could raise the sum and get rid of them....?
maybe focus on donation( its not begging!!! ) should increase( money transparency, donation goals , acheivments etc... )
after all enought folks/companies depends on OGRE and want it to thrive...

Post by **spacegaier** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:40 pm

It would be nice if we didn't have C4 Engine ads on our home page.
It would be nice if we didn't have ads at all...ads make OGRE website feel like a cheap redirection( to unity??? ) page...
so my question is how much money are this ads making...?
maybe we could raise the sum and get rid of them....?

This point was already discussed internally: The ads will be dropped from the new website, but most likely remain for the time being in the forums (but vanish from here at some point as well).

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:43 pm

The ads will be dropped from the new website

great, realy great news...thanks.....+1 +1 +1 +1 +1

lonewolff · Post by **lonewolff** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:29 pm

I wouldn't necessarily say that the topic is derailing. All of the derailments are still relevant to where Ogre stand today and perhaps will guide where Ogre goes in the future.

Ogre still has a massive life ahead of it

c6burns · Post by **c6burns** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:03 pm

It is officially OK to have a thread in Lounge / Off-topic derail. I give my official stamp of approval.

Hint: this stamp is meaningless and carries no actual authority and is void where prohibited and also everywhere

madmarx · Post by **madmarx** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:43 pm

Plenty of good stuff in this thread.

Apart from what has been said concerning unity3D and UE4, the reason I went away from Ogre was something else.

Tools were not a problem for me (still, I am extremely happy that OpenGEX gets supported

very wise). I have written in maxscript a custom exporter/importer for 3dsmax/Ogre and it is good for my students to understand the full production pipeline.

But in my case, the reason I went away from Ogre was this one : I found it too big/bloated, I wanted a rewrite because lot of code was barely maintainable (scenemanager for example), and several things that should have been simple to code were hard to manage (resources for example, manual rendering). I was afraid to recommand it to my students for that reason.

I will of course look and test when Ogre2 is finished. I know that I will get blown away by the demo and things we can do, but if I feel that the code of Ogre2 is still too overconvoluted, I will probably continue with bgfx. bgfx (https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx) is more what I was looking for as a rendering engine. It's probably not for the newbies who wants to make games, though.

Still the community here is the best, and that is why I still pass once in a while to read the messages.
I have nice memories from nullsquared, Kojack, Cyberreality, Klaim and tons of others members.

Post by **Kojack** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:55 am

madmarx wrote: But in my case, the reason I went away from Ogre was this one : I found it too big/bloated, I wanted a rewrite because lot of code was barely maintainable (scenemanager for example), and several things that should have been simple to code were hard to manage (resources for example, manual rendering). I was afraid to recommand it to my students for that reason.

Ogre 2.0 does cut down on some stuff. Scene managers are gone, some of the render systems will soon be gone, etc.

I've never minded the size of ogre for pc, but it always seemed way too big for mobile. Then again, I generally believe phones should be using something 2d like sfml, 3d doesn't belong there. I'm in the minority it seems.

I agree on the manual rendering. That's something I've had trouble with in the past. Even though there's a few methods in scene manager and lower for it, it's almost undocumented and there's no useful info on here. Just being able to render a material on a 2d quad to a render texture (without scene managers, cameras, etc) takes a lot of trial and error.

c6burns · Post by **c6burns** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:07 am

Kojack wrote:Then again, I generally believe phones should be using something 2d like sfml, 3d doesn't belong there.

Blasphemy!

Anyway re: size my final .so on Android is only 25M which is really nothing. You can't even buy a new cheapy 35$ android tablet with less than 512M anymore.

Where size really matters is something like PS3 (haven't worked with PS4 yet so can't comment). OgreMain is seriously bloated for that architecture. You can't fit it on an SPU without ripping it apart.

Herb · Post by **Herb** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:31 pm

I think as we get closer to 2.0 being the new stable Ogre, we need to look hard at the wiki and tutorials. I'm using 1.9 and have been following 2.0 development, but haven't tried it yet. I think the changes are large enough (which is a good thing), that without good documentation and updated tutorials for this version, it will be harder for newer people to pick up Ogre. I'm a bit nervous in understanding how to use 2.0 and porting code (and have used Ogre for years), not that I disagree with the changes, but most 2.0 information at this point is scattered and fairly high-level.

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:51 pm

I think as we get closer to 2.0 being the new stable Ogre

getting closer, but still not close enough to worry about( for now... )
there was a talk about ctp( community preview ) before rc and stable, but i don't know what the current road-map is...

the reason I went away from Ogre was this one : I found it too big/bloated

same reason why i like it...
i played a bit with Urho3D which is supposingly a young clean api inspired by ogre( +physics,sound,scripting ), source code looks smaller and better organized...still i feel at home with good old OGRE...
bgfx is realy small and neat, but lacking so many features, i can't imagine writing a game with it...( ok for learning about graphic pipe-line ii guess... )
it feels more like a cross-platform shader lib + some extras....( = render-system part of ogre )
never the less, it would be great if ogre's inside was more accessible/maintainable/documented/modular
i guess that this bloating is the product of 15 years of development....
first versions of ogre were quite thin....almost like bgfx...

Anyway re: size my final .so on Android is only 25M which is really nothing

do you mean clean OGRE lib( with ois/gles/overlay ) size is about 25M?
did you optimize it for size? http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55527

c6burns · Post by **c6burns** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:35 am

lol no libOgreMain.a is 10x the size of my .so

But you know, everything is linked statically, even the plugins ... so only the referenced symbols end up in the final .so. I don't see why I should spend any time reducing the final native lib size unless there's a compelling reason to do so.

I have a lot in there too. terrain and paging, pagedgeometry, ogre procedural, particle universe, bullet, cricket audio, boost, probably more I've forgotten

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:45 am

just to be sure...
so your final app without resources is about 25M with all the goodies inside???
sounds great...

c6burns · Post by **c6burns** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:58 am

The .so is 25M. The final apk with no resources is like 7M cuz of how apks are zipped. I have about 180M of resources which is probably going to double

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:23 am

The .so is 25M. The final apk with no resources is like 7M cuz of how apks are zipped

thats amzaing...from bloatware to floatware...

I have about 180M of resources which is probably going to double

wonder how many types of crashed/panicked penguin meshes you have...

c6burns · Post by **c6burns** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:37 am

The biggest single resource is the .skeleton of a penguin doing a 2 minute long samba dance animation (no jokes ... 2 min long, all unique animation set to music haha). It's like 6MB

There's an achievement for watching the whole dance until he runs out of steam and the music stops ... it's called "Eventually He Tuckers Out" or something like that. The colormaps of the terrains are around 3M a pop. Some of the .ogg music files are close to that.

The crashes are done with ragdoll physics (bullet driving the bones)

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:15 am

Re: What happend with Ogre?

There's an achievement for watching the whole dance until he runs out of steam and the music stops

talk about this thread derailing in unexpected directions....

madmarx · Post by **madmarx** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:00 pm

Madmarx wrote :

I found it too big/bloated

Kojack wrote :

I've never minded the size of ogre for pc, but it always seemed way too big for mobile.

Oups, I meant about code size : number of classes and methods, not about byte size.

Post by **Kojack** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:23 pm

lonewolff wrote:
Thyrion wrote:if neoaxis would change his license to opensource it would be all there ...

but he made it much worse. Added the new terrain page streaming feature into the 700$ and 3000$ license ... :-/
Really? I can't see anything on the site with regards to pricing.

Is it one of those hidden things to 'get you in'?

(edit)
Yep, just found it http://www.neoaxis.com/neoaxis/licensing

NeoAxis has just announced that the full engine is now free.

There's still paid licenses, but they give engine source code access. The free version has all the features.
http://www.neoaxis.com/news/neoaxis_3d_ ... fully_free

frostbyte · Post by **frostbyte** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:40 pm

What happend with NeoAxis?

thats good, unfourntly, if a tree falls in the forest....
i think neoaxis biggest problem beside the no mobile( come on ivan- even MS is now working for you ) is very very poor PR...
i can surely understand and identify with the "i want to keep my freedom" thing, but that does'nt mix good with making business...
no money for pr=can't make money=no money for pr=... egg and chicken, time to break the cycle...
changing the licence/price every two weeks will not help here...( first price goes crazy up two week later its free...and everybody happy... )
neoaxis is great and ivan is one of the most hard-working/stubborn programmers i've heard of....( that crazy russian guy... )
sorry for being a carrot here...but i'll be happy if neoaxis will start making some noise which in turn i hope will be good for OGRE....

c6burns · Post by **c6burns** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:47 am

Kojack wrote:
c6burns wrote:Oooo I didn't realize that was free ... on mobile platforms as well or just PC? The studio part or just the runtime SDK? I'll go check it out!
Havok Physics, Animation, the Animation Studio and the 3dsmax and maya exporters (graphics and physics) are all free for pc (if you use it commercially, you need to request a free license).
Project Anarchy is free for mobile (android, ios, tizen) and it includes Havok Physics, Animation, AI and the Vision Engine (full game engine).

One of my student game teams made their own dx11 gfx engine and used the Havok 3dsmax exporter to get meshes and collision data into their game.

By the way, I spoke with Havok about licensing and while they discussed some ballpark figures outside the NDA, I'm going to honor their general wishes to keep their pricing info on lock down. But let's just say this ... there is no middle ground between Project Anarchy's only-mobile-but-completely free model, and paying for Havok's products on a product-by-product basis. They are clearly not worried about jumping into the rat race between the other middlewares catering to indie, since they are doing fine licensing individual products to medium/large studios. In the future I think they will iron out some more interesting middle-ground options for smaller budgets, which they hinted at, but they just don't have it right now.