Vexed with Exporting programs/literature & tutorials

[geneticexperimentminusone]

I am a 3D artist that feel that I have been asked to jump through one too many hoops when it comes to importing 3D assets into the OGRE engine.

I am working with 3DSMax 5.1, and I installed the OGRE Exporter "Ogre3DSExporter-1.0.0" according to the included "Install" document. After that, I read the included "readme" html document. Now, after reading all these documents, one would expect the installer to do what it is supposed to do, right? However, this is not the case.

While I am sure this topic must have been discussed at least a hundred times, I would like to know if someone has a STEP BY STEP tutorial on how to import MESHES, TEXTURES (MATERIALS), and ANIMATIONS. Please, do not assume that the reader knows what you are writing about and be as detailed as possible.

<rant>Do understand that "Artist doesnt necessarily = Programmer/Coder" My best guess is that, like me, most artists will frustrate and just give up after the 27th time they try to figure the program out. if you want great looking 3D assets and textures, please make it easier for us artists to export models and meshes.</rant>

[sinbad]

Please be aware that the #1 limitation for us in helping you more with 3DS is the quite ludicrously high price of 3DS Max. Discreet have refused all requests for a reasonably priced developer deal (unlike SoftImage), so our hands are tied. We rely entirely on external contributors to provide 3DS support, because it is simply far, far out of our financial reach and we don't use warez.

Hopefully someone else who can afford 3DS can help you here. I know a number of people are using it.

[Envinyatar]

I just wanted to say that I share your frustation geneticexperimentminusone.

As much money as it costs, 3dsmax is far-and-away the most used 3d modeling software in game development.

(my meager attempt to support the outlandish claim:
http://www.gamedev.net/gdpolls/viewpoll.asp?ID=45
http://www.gamedev.net/gdpolls/viewpoll.asp?ID=195
http://www.gamedev.net/gdpolls/viewpoll.asp?ID=562 )

<rant>Speaking for myself, I'm helping projects to make computer games on my own time as a hobby with the hope that one day I could get a 'real job' doing this work. Because the software is so heavily used in the industry, I want to make sure I'm getting as much practice using it as possible. I've already purchased max (student edition - around $500), and I don't think it would benifit me and my team enough to purchase another 3d modeling package like XSI.

My development team was looking into using Ogre, and they asked me to see if I could figure out how to use the exporter tools. I don't consider myself an entry level 3ds Max user and I could not for the life of me figure out how to get animations exported in a useful form (using biped and physique). So, our team decided to look for another package.

This isn't a terribly bad thing, its just that IMHO, by not formally supporting 3ds Max - it will hinder the growth and use of Ogre.

Its no skin off my nose, but... OGRE is such a powerful tool, its a shame that people might not use it because it doesn't fully support the most common 3d modeling software. </rant>

*gets off soapbox*

Sorry for that sudden outburst (and my first post - shame on me!)

Anyway, I'll keep checking the forums occasionally to see if some external contributer comes out with a more usefull plugin, script, or documenation (targeted for artists).

[monster]

I don't think anyone's denying that 3DS is the most popular modeling tool, or that it would be great if the Ogre devs could support it more fully. The problem is (as sinbad says) it's very very expensive.

The developers that would be able to write and support the exporter are understandably a bit reluctant to fork out hundreds of dollars for a massively complicated 3D modeling package when they're not actually going to use it. They just need access to it in order to create an exporter to allow more people to get more use out of that modeler.

SoftImage seem to have recognised that, which is why they've come up with the affordable developer deals. For some reason Discreet aren't willing to do the same.

Saying "Give me an aritist oriented tutorial" or "I'm frustrated so I'll sit around and wait for someone to come up with a better plugin / script / documentation" isn't really going to help anyone. Generally the programmers writing the plugins aren't artists, so they can't write tutorials from that point of view, and they only know the documentation's not very good if people tell them that it isn't and (even better) suggest improvements.

What I think is needed is for people to give actual feedback when trying to use the exporter;
- If the install steps aren't clear, which ones aren't clear and why?
- If the install didn't work correctly, what happened, were there any errors?
- Which bits of the documentation are unclear? Do you have any suggestions as to how it could be made more clear?
- Which bits of the exporter aren't useful and how could they be made more useful?
- etc...

If you, as artists, don't think that the exporters are "artist-friendly" then the programmers would love to remedy that, but they'll need your help.

Just my $0.02, and sorry if this seems to be reinforcing an us and them attitude between programmers and artists. That's really not my intention, but I think there are definite differences between what each group wants, needs and can contribute.

[:wumpus:]

What part in "not being able to afford 3DS" do you not understand? We as developers already put a large amount of free time into this project, which, by the way, doesn't get us a penny (we recently enabled donations but until now we needed all that to support the server hosting only)

And yes, 3ds is the most used modelling tool for games, we, like you, have been in the computer graphics area for years and would be stupid to not have noticed. We would really *like* to support 3ds better, but alas, until someone sponsors us in some way we *can't*

Please people leave your soapbox at home if you're not also going to help. If someone would provide us with a 3DS license we'd be glad to improve the exporter and make it more artist friendly.

[psyclonist]

Just a small note in between the discussion on price tags: The original authors of Octopus (a 3dsmax based set of plugins for exporting assets) have returned to active work. Improvements are on their way. As monster said, more detailed feedback is definitely needed (like "What exactly is missing/wrong/...?").

Anyway, I'll keep checking the forums occasionally to see if some external contributer comes out with a more usefull plugin, script, or documenation (targeted for artists).

Did you take a look at Octopus yet? It's partly based on Ogre's original maxscript based exporter. A Quick Start Guide can be found here (in English and Chinese). What is it missing? What should we add? The current TODO is here.


-psy

[sinbad]

Yes, do look at Octopus. On the subject of price, you're lucky to be able to get a student license for $500 (although I'd still think twice about it) - not being a student the minimum price I'd have to pay for 3DS is $3000. That's totally unjustifiable - no matter how much I might want to support OGRE users, I'm not going to pay that sort of money for something I'll never use. It's just the same as me asking you to buy a copy of Maya and XSI too, or asking you to buy a $3000 programming tool. It ain't gonna happen.

And on the subject of popularity, 3DS may be the most popular modeller in game development historically, but don't count on that continuing. There has been a significant drift towards Maya in recent times (which you could have learned for free thanks to the PLE), both due to the 3DS price tag and that 3DS's tools (as I'm led to understand) tend to be less well integrated, since most have been acquired from 3rd parties and bolted on. The fact that you can buy a full (non-student) copy of XSI, which arguably has far better integrated animation and modelling tools, for $495 adds further doubt to the continued dominance of 3DS in the future. IMO, Discreet have milked their dominance in the market a little too much and some adjustment in future market share (and thus prices) is inevitable.

[Envinyatar]

Please people leave your soapbox at home if you're not also going to help.

Saying "Give me an aritist oriented tutorial" or "I'm frustrated so I'll sit around and wait for someone to come up with a better plugin / script / documentation" isn't really going to help anyone.

I'm able and willing to help out. Problem is, I'm taking 23 credits at my university, in addition to a part time job. Summer break is comming up soon (mid June) though so I'll see what I can do to at least work with someone who knows how the plugin/script works and write up some decent documentation.

Is the programmer (Banania?) who made that plugin around to work with, and potentially improve it?

What is it missing? What should we add?

- If the install steps aren't clear, which ones aren't clear and why?
- If the install didn't work correctly, what happened, were there any errors?
- Which bits of the documentation are unclear? Do you have any suggestions as to how it could be made more clear?
- Which bits of the exporter aren't useful and how could they be made more useful?

- I didn't have any problems installing it.

- Take the skeletal portion of the tutorial (Ogre3DSExporter-1.0.0/Docs/tutorials/skeleton/index.html). The bulk of it is explaining how to rig a simple object with bones and skin. That's a no brainer. The 3ds max help and tutorial files explain that in much better detail than this, and IMHO is not really the focus of what this tutorial should be about. I would expect this tutorial to explain how to use the exporter tool.

This here is what I need to be explained better:

Now, the box can be exported by the exporter. Select it, uncheck "export texure information" because Texture coordinates have not been generated by UVWMap modifier for example, and there will be an error if you try to export. Write the animation name you want, but it must be the same as the one you use in your OGRE application (look at the SkeletonAnimation Demo if you want a sample).

What boxes to I check and uncheck in the export window? What am I supposed to select to export - the mesh or bones or both? How do you select your skeleton or bones to animate - or do you even need to? How do I define the length of frames the animation covers - is it the default or something else?

A step by step instructions of the actual exporting process would be ideal - not explaining me how to make the thing I should already know how to make.

I think that would be one big thing that would help in the documentation would be to explain the functions of what the plugin menu does. Label every button, check box, text field and explain what it does, in what cases you would use this option or that option, things to watch out for... etc.

For example, in the animatoin section there is a field that says "Get settings from Octopus Modifier." An afternoon about a month ago, I looked and looked through the documentation trying to figure out what this Octopus thing was. No luck so I searched the forums, and eventually figured out that Octopus must be some other tool that is supposed to be used in tandum with Ogre? Or is it? I still don't know :p Which leads me to:

- I honestly can't tell you what is useful and what isn't because I don't know what some of those things in the export menu do...

Did you take a look at Octopus yet?

Yeah I took a look at it. Seemed to be some sort of a scene exporter for max? Something for building say a map for a FPS game? Again, I'm not totally clear on this either. But, if Octopus is a tool 3dmax users need to use it would be a good thing to make sure thats clearly written somewhere near where people download ogre's max tools. If its not needed, then something that explained what the recommended use for either tool would be nice. Why would I use one over the other?

you're lucky to be able to get a student license for $500

Actually, the issue you guys have with the price sparked my curiosity. I was looking around on the internet and the same place I purchased my copy of R5 a year ago now offers a 1-Year Student/Faculty License of R7 for $169. Which I assume still doesn't help you guys out, but perhaps someone might be interested: http://www.academicsuperstore.com

IMO, Discreet have milked their dominance in the market a little too much and some adjustment in future market share (and thus prices) is inevitable.

I'm all for XSI doing well, competition is good. If XSI does well, it will force discreet to lower their prices. I'm not going to be a student forever

[monster]

Unfortunately I've got nothing to do with the 3DS exporter, I wrote the AC3D one which isn't quite in the same league, but I imagine that's exactly the kind of feedback the plugin developers are after! Nice one.

Problem is, I'm taking 23 credits at my university, in addition to a part time job.

Yeah, none of us have got enough time. Personally, I've got a 50 hour a week full-time day job, a 20+ hour a week part-time additional job, and a 12 week old son. I long for the days when I was at University; complaining about how we were sooo busy and didn't have enough time to do assignments etc, whilst sitting in the pub! *sigh* happy days.

[psyclonist]

Envinyatar: Octopus is a set of plugins for 3dsmax. It includes Ogre-related exporters (for meshes, materials, animations) and plugins. It provides a few mesh modifiers, material plugins and several helper objects (related to physics definitions for ODE and Yake related objects).

Thanks for the input on the documentation. You mixed the docs of different projects (e.g. the tutorial you mentioned has nothing much to do with Octopus) but it's probably understandable, so thanks for the ideas on how to improve them.

-psy

[geneticexperimentminusone]

First of all, I would like to say that I am sorry if it sounded like I was just ranting and blaming people. my roommate read the post, and he said he was surprised people didnt start flaming my post. I didnt mean to sound like a jackass, but do understand that it is not easy to have your workflow grind to a halt because of a problem like this.

Now, also, my roommate explained to me why it is so difficult to come up with good pluggins and exporters for Max, and I realize (or realise depending on your geographical location) that the fine people that work hard to come up with some sort of pluggins are not to blame.

The reason I wanted to use max is because it is the program I learned at school, and it is the program I feel most comfortable with. I know where things are, and if I dont know how to do something a certain way, there are about twenty other ways to get the same result.

Now, being that Discreet hasnt been really helpful to the independent/less afluent developer cause, I think the best thing I could do right now is to choose a 3D software package such as Milkshape 3D or blender and work with these instead. now, it is going to be hard learning a new software package after being so used to Max, but I think in the end, it will be easier, since it will be free, and there is also better support when it comes to OGRE, which is what I really really need.

Now, the question is, which of these other 3D software suites, in your estimation, is better suited/easier to learn/better supported to deal with OGRE?

Again, thank you for all your posts, and for not being consumed by the flames of hellfire while reading the mindless rants of yours trully. Once I am able to figure out how to do exports and things like that, I promise to write a concise step-by-step tutorial with pictures on how to export into OGRE, and maybe even some general character modeling tutorials for those who need help. Thanks for your time and patience.

[Vectrex]

ummm, hasn't anyone looked at the GREAT 2 hour tutorial video sticky post?? It covers exactly what you want to know and is segmented in to 5 sections (if you already know them).

[P]

If you are only doing models for games go for XSI or Blender

else look at Lightwave XSI Blender (imo)

XSI and blender have great exporting support, Lightwave not yet

I use myself Lightwave the most, but i m beginning to look at Blender and XSI and think i ll also buy XSI soon

[TheGilb]

In continued support of 3dsmax here is a _direct_ link to the sticky thread that the wise Vectrex was referring to.

http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10040

This should answer all of your queries, and all the ones you haven't even thought about yet. In reality you'll only need 30 minutes to go through the whole tutorial, skipping the bits you already know.

[Vectrex]

thank you.. I thought I was going crazy and just imagined the videos

[BlasterN]

Anyone have 3DSMAX original?

Code: Select all

Windows Physical Shipment ($3,495.00)

OMG :! http://estore.discreet.com/dr/v2/ec_MAI ... 0000174329

ok... i think that my mother have to work a lot!! to buy me a 3dsmaX

[sinbad]

So don't bother with 3DS - use Blender (free, but still catching up feature wise) or XSI (much cheaper, very full featured).

I read last week that Lionhead are the latest dev team to jump ship and move to XSI. More are bound to follow until Discreet see sense on pricing.

[Lioric]

I did an max 5.1 exporter like 4 or more months ago, it was made while i was testing Ogre 0.14, in the next days i will test again the 1.0.1 Ogre so i will recompile the exporter and release here, it was a dll exporter ( a .dle if you prefer) so you will not have the common problems of max scripted tools, like memory, speed of execution, the bad gc that kicks in every time, and installation problems

The exporter even has an Ogre viewport in max (you can right click in any viewport and choose the Ogre View) so you can model and see the object as it will be in you game, hope i can find it somewhere on a backup cd

Lioric

[jacmoe]

Sounds cool

[TheGilb]

An Ogre viewport in max would be absolutely brilliant! Hope you can dig this out Lioric!