Global Warming - Fact or fiction?

[CaseyB]

People think that running green business is much less profitable then in reallity (expenses for additional tools to catch CO2, etc), however it's proved that recycling the waste can bring back much more money (caught CO2 can be reused in plastics, city waste in energy and building materials, etc), etc. It's all about people being afraid to leave their comfort zone of established stereotypes....

You are correct! Companies can be much lucrative if they can find a good way to deal with their waste! I saw a show on the BRAND NAME about a cow farm that used the methane from the cow excrement to power the farm, the processed solid waste to replace the sawdust they normally put in the cows pens and the liquid waste to fertilize the corn that fed the cows! The whole place was completely self-sustaining!

[tau]

A guy in Germany wants to go to college. So off he goes , after X number of years he becomes an engineer and starts earning a good salary.
His education was financed by all working citizens , majority of whom never went to college.

Here is another example for ya.
Employee group health insurance in US from a XXX health insurance company. Imagine, there is a company of 20 people, they all pay $400/month for health insurance and belong to the same coverage group.

Now, one of employees has an accident, he stay in hospital one month, the hospital bills the ins. company $1,500,000 (complex heart surgery), now, god forbid of cause, you need to go in hospital and have a surgery... Guess what? Your Employee group was flagged as non-profitable by the insurance company and you are rejected the coverage for your surgery (or covered only 10%), now you have to pay let's say $200,000, so you fill for bankropsy to save your but. Does this sound fair to you, Warmi, if you paid that other guy surgery from your pocket (and pockets of your colleagues) and was denied for yours? This is a real life example.

So, dont be grumpy because you "financed" a poor kid for college, then when that kid starts to make more money, he will "finance" your retirement, so you can enjoy yourself and not working in restaurants when your are 80 to pay your medical bills.

[tau]

People think that running green business is much less profitable then in reallity (expenses for additional tools to catch CO2, etc), however it's proved that recycling the waste can bring back much more money (caught CO2 can be reused in plastics, city waste in energy and building materials, etc), etc. It's all about people being afraid to leave their comfort zone of established stereotypes....

You are correct! Companies can be much lucrative if they can find a good way to deal with their waste! I saw a show on the BRAND NAME about a cow farm that used the methane from the cow excrement to power the farm, the processed solid waste to replace the sawdust they normally put in the cows pens and the liquid waste to fertilize the corn that fed the cows! The whole place was completely self-sustaining!

He he .. that's what my grand dad did with his cow farm last century

[CaseyB]

People think that running green business is much less profitable then in reallity (expenses for additional tools to catch CO2, etc), however it's proved that recycling the waste can bring back much more money (caught CO2 can be reused in plastics, city waste in energy and building materials, etc), etc. It's all about people being afraid to leave their comfort zone of established stereotypes....

You are correct! Companies can be much lucrative if they can find a good way to deal with their waste! I saw a show on the BRAND NAME about a cow farm that used the methane from the cow excrement to power the farm, the processed solid waste to replace the sawdust they normally put in the cows pens and the liquid waste to fertilize the corn that fed the cows! The whole place was completely self-sustaining!

He he .. that's what my grand dad did with his cow farm last century

You mean in the '80's?

Another good example is a gun range! They sell reloaded ammunition, people shoot it leave the casings on the floor and the lead down range. They scoop it up and sell it to the ammunition manufacturer to make more ammunition to sell in their store! It never really goes away, they keep recycling it and reusing it!

[FrameFever]

Solidarity systems take care of situations like this "automatically".

Actually it is very easy to make a case that this sort of solidarity system goes against everything socialism is supposed to stand for.

Imagine this scenario:

A guy in Germany wants to go to college. So off he goes , after X number of years he becomes an engineer and starts earning a good salary.
His education was financed by all working citizens , majority of whom never went to college.
So you have another guy who never went to college , he is a janitor and makes a lot less money, yet he is expected to shell out part of his salary so some other guy can enjoy his dream.

In the end we have a scenario where people who have much lower earning potential, financing others who will end up making a lot more money than they ever will.

Now look at what happens on the other side of the pond.

A guy wants to go to college so he gets himself a loan to finance his college education.
After X number of years he, just like that guy in Germany, becomes an engineer and starts making a lot of money.
He himself pays of his loan without having a local janitor contributing a cent.

So in the end both guys had a chance to become an engineer , except the guy in US did that without forcing the poorest among the society to contribute to his success without them getting anything in return.

Now , tell me which system is more just and spreads the costs of education in a more logical manner ?

what a strange logic.

so you find it not good that people can have a good education without paying thousands of euro.
Maybe you also thing it's better to use the money for a higher military budget to defend the "freedom" all over the world.

[warmi]

so you find it not good that people can have a good education without paying thousands of euro.

Please, people ... there are no free lunches ,ever !!

Even if you live in Germany, you are still paying for your education and you will pay till the day you retire.

I mean it is a common sense .... I just don't get how people can think that this stuff or health-care can be free ?

If a government can do magic and provide this sort of services for free, hell, why not have them provide all the other stuff for free as well ...
I mean, why not , they can do that with education so perhaps a free car or at least a free computer for everyone woudn't be such a bad idea ?

money for a higher military budget to defend the "freedom" all over the world.

I hope you are not from EU because that would just going over the line… given how much money US has burned over the last century protecting Europe while they were building their cuddly social states.

[jjp]

Even if you live in Germany, you are still paying for your education and you will pay till the day you retire.

I mean it is a common sense .... I just don't get how people can think that this stuff or health-care can be free ?

To put it simple: both education and medical care are human rights and should be granted to anyone, regardless of his wealth, origin or luck. Where did anyone ever in this thread say it was for free? Like has been said several times before: equal chances. That's what the systems in the US provide much less than in other western countries. Statistically the "american dream" is a lot more likely to happen to you if you don't live in the US. Not that I think it even would be a very wise goal to pursue.

This is pointless. You are ignoring arguments when they don't fit your narrow point of view, which looks a lot like religion from the outside actually. At least from what you are writing here it looks like that. End of discussion for me.

[Caphalor]

So in the end both guys had a chance to become an engineer , except the guy in US did that without forcing the poorest among the society to contribute to his success without them getting anything in return.

That's the solidarity principle. In Germany, the engineer will have to pay much more taxes than the janitor, and you forgot that the janitor also will get a lot of things maybe payed by the engineer! It's a society where nobody has to suffer and where everybody has (nearly) the same chances.
I understand your arguments and I don't think that our system in Germany is the best possible solution, but you should accept facts like this.

[warmi]

I understand your arguments and I don't think that our system in Germany is the best possible solution, but you should accept facts like this.

Hey, I do accept it and it is not like I am claiming here that Germany is some sort of totalitarian state or anything like that.

I am perfectly fine with people in Germany having a society they think benefits them most ...

What I am trying to communicate is that there are different ways of handling these issues and the fact that things are done differently in USA is not a sign of backwardness or lack of progress but just a matter of choice.

Look closely at what is being written in this thread … and judge for yourself …. It is mostly our European friends trying to convince us that we live in some sort of weird high-tech medieval society full of guns and human suffering.

[KungFooMasta]

Now, one of employees has an accident, he stay in hospital one month, the hospital bills the ins. company $1,500,000 (complex heart surgery), now, god forbid of cause, you need to go in hospital and have a surgery... Guess what? Your Employee group was flagged as non-profitable by the insurance company and you are rejected the coverage for your surgery (or covered only 10%), now you have to pay let's say $200,000, so you fill for bankropsy to save your but. Does this sound fair to you, Warmi, if you paid that other guy surgery from your pocket (and pockets of your colleagues) and was denied for yours? This is a real life example.

I don't buy it. Its illegal for a policy to state they will cover you up to X amount of dollars, and then drop you from the plan without covering you up to X amount of dollars. When you get a job and go over the benefits and packages you get to choose what plan you want, and it will outline its coverage.

If this isn't the case I should start my own insurance company. I'll collect money every month, but when you have medical bills that need to be paid I'll tell you that you're no longer covered.

[xavier]

Now, one of employees has an accident, he stay in hospital one month, the hospital bills the ins. company $1,500,000 (complex heart surgery), now, god forbid of cause, you need to go in hospital and have a surgery... Guess what? Your Employee group was flagged as non-profitable by the insurance company and you are rejected the coverage for your surgery (or covered only 10%), now you have to pay let's say $200,000, so you fill for bankropsy to save your but. Does this sound fair to you, Warmi, if you paid that other guy surgery from your pocket (and pockets of your colleagues) and was denied for yours? This is a real life example.

I don't buy it. Its illegal for a policy to state they will cover you up to X amount of dollars, and then drop you from the plan without covering you up to X amount of dollars. When you get a job and go over the benefits and packages you get to choose what plan you want, and it will outline its coverage.

If this isn't the case I should start my own insurance company. I'll collect money every month, but when you have medical bills that need to be paid I'll tell you that you're no longer covered.

Because something is illegal doesn't prevent people from doing it anyway -- that's why we have crime and courts and overflowing prisons. Thing is, insurance companies are betting (literally) that you will not take them to court and press the matter to the point that they are found liable (and then some, when you begin including punitive damages).

BTW this thread has got so far off-topic and is so long now (for reasons including myself) that I am just going to close it soon and ask that the different sub-threads carry on in new threads of their own (like I did with the Socialism thread). Just a heads-up.

[tau]

Now, one of employees has an accident, he stay in hospital one month, the hospital bills the ins. company $1,500,000 (complex heart surgery), now, god forbid of cause, you need to go in hospital and have a surgery... Guess what? Your Employee group was flagged as non-profitable by the insurance company and you are rejected the coverage for your surgery (or covered only 10%), now you have to pay let's say $200,000, so you fill for bankropsy to save your but. Does this sound fair to you, Warmi, if you paid that other guy surgery from your pocket (and pockets of your colleagues) and was denied for yours? This is a real life example.

I don't buy it. Its illegal for a policy to state they will cover you up to X amount of dollars, and then drop you from the plan without covering you up to X amount of dollars. When you get a job and go over the benefits and packages you get to choose what plan you want, and it will outline its coverage.

If this isn't the case I should start my own insurance company. I'll collect money every month, but when you have medical bills that need to be paid I'll tell you that you're no longer covered.

KungFooMasta, even if it's illegal, those companies find holes to squeeze thru, I had several case in my and my friends families when ppl were denied coverage for some reason or another, those companies have a special department that looks for any reason in patients history or local law to drop the person (I knew about it even before watching Sicko). even if the coverage outlined, the booklet that comes with any plan directly states that they dont give the warranty of the coverage (case for any insurance company). Period.

In US, you are fine while your are healthy, then you are a looser. Guess who is the winner...

[tau]

BTW this thread has got so far off-topic and is so long now (for reasons including myself) that I am just going to close it soon and ask that the different sub-threads carry on in new threads of their own (like I did with the Socialism thread). Just a heads-up.

HEY, this is the OFF-TOPIC forum! Threads are supposed to be off-topic in any direction

[warmi]

Guess who is the winner...

Who ?

I mean seriously ... I want to know.

[KungFooMasta]

I had several case in my and my friends families when ppl were denied coverage for some reason or another

Can you find out why they were denied coverage? This is a pretty serious issue. If I was denied coverage when I needed it, you bet I would find out why I was dropped.

Do your family and friends currently have any insurance coverage, after the fact that they were denied coverage by their providers? What steps have they taken to make sure this doesn't happen again? Or is the case that anybody here in the US could get screwed at any time, and I'm fortunate nobody I know in the state of WA has been screwed over like this?

[xavier]

BTW this thread has got so far off-topic and is so long now (for reasons including myself) that I am just going to close it soon and ask that the different sub-threads carry on in new threads of their own (like I did with the Socialism thread). Just a heads-up.

HEY, this is the OFF-TOPIC forum! Threads are supposed to be off-topic in any direction

Yeah, but the actual threads themselves are supposed to stay 'on-topic' -- and as a moderator I'm not doing my job real well in this one (although I've given up with the notion of trying to split this one out. )

[Entropai]

I hope you are not from EU because that would just going over the line… given how much money US has burned over the last century protecting Europe while they were building their cuddly social states.

Not quite certain what you're referring to but US has spent zero dollars to save europe and all to save itself and its continuing existence. US didnt popout from/exist in vacuum and become best country in the world as you seem to view it. I didnt see answer anywhere but how long have you lived in US and where did you born?

To the topic which seems to be forgotten and long gone. Climate is warming, there's no doubt of it (reference to data was given in earlier post), calling global warming total BS is just ignorance. Only difference is that what are the real causes and what can be done to it, if anything can be done. Climate&biosphere is chaotic and self regulatory system, one small thing can trip it to move to another direction, or it may not have any affect at all in long term. Thing is that if we trip it in critical, we might end up in total catastrophe where living here becomes completely unsustainable. I dont think gambling with it is not neccesarily the best thing to do. Discussion at the moment goes that if globally temperature raises 1.5 C it wil have such and such effects but the change doesnt neccesarily end here.

[xavier]

To the topic which seems to be forgotten and long gone. Climate is warming, there's no doubt of it (reference to data was given in earlier post), calling global warming total BS is just ignorance. Only difference is that what are the real causes and what can be done to it, if anything can be done. Climate&biosphere is chaotic and self regulatory system, one small thing can trip it to move to another direction, or it may not have any affect at all in long term. Thing is that if we trip it in critical, we might end up in total catastrophe where living here becomes completely unsustainable. I dont think gambling with it is not neccesarily the best thing to do. Discussion at the moment goes that if globally temperature raises 1.5 C it wil have such and such effects but the change doesnt neccesarily end here.

Agreed, I probably should have been clearer. The question of "fact or fiction" is in fact whether humans are the primary cause (the answer to which I am convinced is "no"). There are also serious questions with the methods used to determine "global temperature", but I leave that aside for now.

[KungFooMasta]

Not quite certain what you're referring to but US has spent zero dollars to save europe and all to save itself and its continuing existence. US didnt popout from/exist in vacuum and become best country in the world as you seem to view it. I didnt see answer anywhere but how long have you lived in US and where did you born?

Do you even live in Europe?

After lobbying by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Generals Clay and George Marshall, the Truman administration finally realized that economic recovery in Europe could not go forward without the reconstruction of the German industrial base on which it had previously had been dependent.[4] In July 1947, President Truman rescinded on "national security grounds"[5] the punitive JCS 1067, which had directed the U.S. forces of occupation in Germany to "take no steps looking toward the economic rehabilitation of Germany." It was replaced by JCS 1779, which instead stressed that "[a]n orderly, prosperous Europe requires the economic contributions of a stable and productive Germany."

This was taken from wikipedia. You should also look into the Marshall Plan, I'll even provide a link for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

During that period some USD 13 billion in economic and technical assistance were given to help the recovery of the European countries that had joined in the Organization for European Economic Co-operation.[1]

You should really read into it, and world war II, and the effects it had on the world...

[warmi]

You should also look into the Marshall Plan

And that’s just the explicit form of help … there was another , more indirect form where for about 45 years US taxpayers shouldered the burden of financing and providing protective umbrella over Western Europe as a part of NATO.

It is easy to disregard that because we know that ultimately nothing happened but at the time , the danger was pretty real.

[NickM]

Getting back on topic, I do believe that global warming is happening but I don't think that humans are completely to blame, we aren't helping matters though.
For some reason humans tend to think that the world is here solely for their benefit, maybe because they are the cleverest species, I'm not so sure they are though!, it's take, take, take all the time. I think the cleverest species are those that live in unison with the world, imo humans don't. Sadly I feel humans will be the downfall of themselves because they are too greedy, the world will have no choice but to destroy the human race, it's a bit depressing but I really feel it will happen, in millions of years time evolution will start all over again.

[warmi]

I think the cleverest species are those that live in unison with the world, imo humans don't.
Sadly I feel humans will be the downfall of themselves because they are too greedy, the world will have no choice but to destroy the human race ...

Well, whatever happens it will be a natural process and not out of step with whatever you referring as “ the worldâ€

[Entropai]

Do you even live in Europe?

Yes i very much live in Europe and have lived in states too. I'm not saying that US hasnt put money and resources to Europe, but i'm rejecting the idea of "burn money for nothing" and "we saved you out of charity and so you can go and play now". Whether we like it or not, Europe depended on US and US depended in extend on the survival of (western) Europe. You can argue this if you wish, but maybe it should be in another thread.

You should really read into it, and world war II, and the effects it had on the world...

So should you, most of the burden of WW2 and its effects were carried directly by European and Asian countries. US benefited invariably by the fact that its infrastructure wasnt damaged by the war, infact since it was geared to massproduce it had lot potential in post war situation.

[NickM]

[quote="warmi"]
Well, whatever happens it will be a natural process and not out of step with whatever you referring as “ the worldâ€

[xavier]

Hate to dig up this relic of a thread, but apparently the answer turns out to have been "fiction".