How does the world see Americans (and McCain/Obama)

syedhs · Post by **syedhs** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:10 pm

warmi wrote: If you talking about Bush and his people then what happened in the last 5 years was a significant change from what used to be the default U.S. policy in the region.

I have to disagree on this. When you are talking about Middle-East policies, you will instantaneously turn your attention to Palestine-Israel issue. And for the past what.. tens of years nothing much has changed. Tell me, what are the significant things have changed since Bush era? Or before him? Nothing, zero , zilcht.

Iraq invasion is just a diversion, what make it seem so big probably has to got do with lots of screw-ups in the tactical area. Lots of screw-ups brings more unnecessary death (both soldiers and civilians) and of course ballooning military budget. And lots of screw-ups brings more scrutiny, publicity and attention to people who previously are not paying attention.

Middle-East conflict is very complicated and you cannot pass judgement based on one single specific case eg the recent Bulldozer attack. Instead, this UK politician has this impressive 'speech' on a BBC interview during the last Israel vs Lubnan war, watch this: George Galloway on Israel vs Lubnan (Hezbollah).

You really need to watch this clip over and over, and you will understand what I have been talking about. Sure, you can just say this man is a populist, drunkard, bitter or whatever, but pay close attention to what he said and I couldn't agree more. That jusstt hits right on the nail.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:03 pm

He is prising the idiots of Hezbollah ... I have no sympathy for Hezbollah whatsoever.
They are the ones who turned once prosperous country into a disaster zone, including the most recent war which was clearly provoked by them.

He is also playing the old game of "Zionist control of the media" ... I can't take people, who take their cues from Goebbels, seriously.

I have no links with Israel whatsoever .. I couldn't care less for their culture and customs ... but I have no problem supporting a modern , democratic, even if imperfect, country in their fight against a bunch of medieval primitives.

Kerion · Post by **Kerion** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:07 pm

syedhs,

I am pretty much with you in terms of political affiliation, but seriously, Hezbollah?

They are a terrorist, fundamentalist organization from the word go. The last thing we need is to support MORE extremist governments. Love Israel, or hate Israel, they are a modern country who is trying to stabilize the region, not destabilize it (see Hezbollah and Iran). You may not like their methods, but the goal is in line with what we should all want. Hezbollah's is not.

syedhs · Post by **syedhs** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:23 pm

Read this: Did you listen to what he said or are you simply parroting what has been said all long? Okay all I am interested is the truth, and I am indeed aware I may have embarked to quite a 'dangerous' territory here

. In fact I have been hesitating to go straight to the point, but there you have it - I just think I wanna share something which I think to be the truth. Okay my truth - probably.

If you cant debate it point by point, then I think I have nothing more to say. From programmer to programmer: If you want to debug a software, find the actual cause and fix it - and be fully conscious of what went wrong so that it can be prevented further.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:30 pm

Yeah I listened to what he said.

I highly doubt you have any special "insight" into what is going on there.
You simply interpret the facts , which are available to everyone, differently.

There is nothing to debate really .. Galloway doesn't make any points ... he is not even trying to be even-handed ... I seriously doubt a dedicated spokesman for Hezbollah could improve much on his performance.

syedhs · Post by **syedhs** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:47 pm

warmi wrote: I highly doubt you have any special "insight" into what is going on there.

Yes I admit that I dont have it - unless if I were to set my foots on either soil during the war for an example.

You simply interpret the facts , which are available to everyone, differently.

I have to say this: I read a lot of related materials including books, articles, blogs - maybe that is one of my interest beside programming. In doing so, I am always trying to stay neutral but somehow, I think I knew which side is right. To be fair, world is quite confusing nowadays because sometimes you dont really know for sure which is the truth because both sides are profusely defending their own POVs.

And regarding Galloways' interview - what he said was simply the truth, and he did the interview without any fact-concealment, simple, direct to the point and I have no doubt ever that he will get any further interview with SkyNews (okay not BBC).

I seriously doubt a dedicated spokesman for Hezbollah could improve much on his performance

On the other hand, he comprehends the situation much better than most other people on earth. Now you have to decide, is he an angle or devil?

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:01 pm

On the other hand, he comprehends the situation much better than most other people on earth.

Well, if you think so then you are free to follow his interpretations.

I personally think he is an idiot ... way out there on the fringe basically siding with everyone who is willing to criticize the west ( it is not just Hezbollah but Taliban as well, he was on Saddam's payroll â€“ basically you give him a dictator or a dictatorial system opposed to the west and he will always find something nice to say about them)

Kerion · Post by **Kerion** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:06 pm

I don't agree with pretty much any of warmi's politics, but on the topic of George Galloway, he is dead on. The guy has always been a schill for these extremist governments and their anti-western point of view. Some of what he says may or may not be fact, but he always, ALWAYS, takes the anti-western bias, and always has.

It's not enough to take in to account what someone is saying, you must take in to account who is saying it.

syedhs · Post by **syedhs** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:38 pm

Okay point taken, George Galloway doesn't have good repo points amongst some of you. It is just that to my knowledge, his points are just well articulated and sounds very right. For an example "No justice, no peace." Make perfect sense. You cannot have peace without all of the request from innerself fulfilled. There are many other his right points but I am too sleepy now to write them down.

I can see that as always, there are two sides of interpretations and no matter what, I dont have much time to post in this forum for today

But what I have been saying in my past posts is that the USA must correct its policies in Middle East, or as what Obama was trying to say with his Winnie the Pooh allegory.

Kerion · Post by **Kerion** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:44 pm

We absolutely must correct our Middle East policy, but George Galloway is not the man to take pointers from.

The first thing we can do is to stop relying on Middle Eastern oil, so we can stop pandering to countries like Saudi Arabia that still oppress women and civil rights. Once we no longer rely on their oil, and no longer have a vested interest in the stability of the area, then we can start to have progressive policy.

VictorMoran · Post by **VictorMoran** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:35 pm

It is hard to keep up with people here. Anyway, @warmi:

warmi wrote: As far as these videos â€¦ think about it this way .. if someone were to follow you with a camera and recorded everything you said in public, given some creative editing, it woudnâ€™t take a genius to come up with a set of videos that would make you look like a moron.
It is just human nature â€¦ we all make mistakes and say things that don't always make sense.

Could you shed some light, and tell me in what way this video was edited to make Mccian looks like an idiot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6Q4aSiI84

because it looks to me, that he got caught trying to change history about his record.
He is running around willy-nilly trying to take credit for the work of other senators,
like the GI bill sponsored by senator Jim Web.
A bill he is in on record to oppose in the pass as the first video shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1aJGaRxDCM

McCain go to interviews to take credit from winning the war by making a lot of stuff up to fit his campaign. He just said this in an interview to CBS news.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O68Vk0Pqzxc
at first it sounds like he nows what is talking about, doesn't it,

But when the facts are checked, a very different picture emerges.
http://www.veracifier.com/episode/TPM_20080723
Even General Petraeus disagree with McCain's fantasy world.
He is the gift that keeps on giving.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:36 am

He is the gift that keeps on giving.

Only in your world.

You can always nitpick this or that but the bottom line is that the guy has been around, has a distinguished record ( as opposed to Obama who basically has none) and is highly regarded in political circles in Washinghton ( this includes both parties.)

VictorMoran · Post by **VictorMoran** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:18 am

Ha but it is not nitpick, it is the news of the week, the man is all confused and tumbling about the facts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 2#25821571

had you noticed that McCain only topic is war and more war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCISY40qns
â€œThere will be more wars, I am sorry to tell youâ€

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:34 am

I am not going into who said what when replying to a reporter.

The bottom line about McCain vs Obama on Iraq is this:

McCain, against the prevailing mood, supported the surge at a time when it was politically dangerous to do so - in fact he was just about the only guy openly supporting it back then.
On the other hand, Obama was busy claiming that the surge would cause violence to spiral out of control and basically would make things much worse.

2 years later, while we still don't know what is the exact reason for the drastic reduction of violence, but the one thing that is clear is that Obama was completely wrong - sending additional U.S. Forces to Iraq did not result in increased violence.

You could try to spin it anyway you want but, at least on this issue, it is OBama who is left with egg on his face .

VictorMoran · Post by **VictorMoran** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:58 am

This event did not happen at random it happened last night, and it is still in the news cycle.
Even Fox New it talking about it as I am making this post and that says a lot.

I am sorry to burst your bubble but there is a lot more to add.
You accuse the reporter and it turns out this mental lapse was so damaging to Maccain,
That CBS for fear to the reaction to the media decided to cover up for Mccain by editing the part of the interview where he tells his version of the history.
I got out because the media watchers have a hold of the transcript.

This is how dangerous this is.
Mccain is going to these interviews, and with a total disregard for the truth, he is making up stories to make it seems like everything in Iraq is happening because of the troop escalation.

We have to believe that the man is blatantly lien about the facts, because the only other explanation to all of these mental lapses,
Is that man has problem remembering chronological events that happen in recent pass, and he is replacing reality with his own mental reality.
We must believe the man is lien because his medical record did not report signs of memory lost.
Either way the man is unfit to be the president of the Unite State.

If you do not believe what the news is telling you, then you are a party line ideologist that will repeat the talking points of your party regardless of what teh facts are, because you must be getting your information from some source which obviously you do believe.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:16 am

Frankly, I don't give a damn about a memory lapse , a random exchange with some reporter, or any nonsense like that.
Brining this sort of stuff is is trivial , a typical campaign bullshit that has no meaning.

I am more interested in guyâ€™s record and what he has been known for before becoming a candidate.

If you do not believe that then the only conclusion is that you are an extremist grassroots party line ideologist that will tell the talking points of your party regardless of the consequences for the country.

Hehehe ... sure. If I support McCain I must be a Nazi and surely someone must be paying me - cause no sane person would support someone like McCain, right ?
And you are taking about party line ideologists ..

In any case, I don't really like McCain policies all that much. He is a statist and not exactly the best guy for this job.
The only reason I will support him is that I simply think he is a much better choice than Obama.

If you don't like him - that's fine, your choice.

VictorMoran · Post by **VictorMoran** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:34 am

warmi wrote:In any case, I don't really like McCain policies all that much. He is a statist and not exactly the best guy for this job.

Thank for agreeing with me, I could not say it better, I accept your apology.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:44 am

VictorMoran wrote:
warmi wrote:In any case, I don't really like McCain policies all that much. He is a statist and not exactly the best guy for this job.
Thank for agreeing with me, I could not say it better, I accept your apology.

Man, you are desperate

syd · Post by **syd** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:35 am

warmi wrote:In any case, I don't really like McCain policies all that much. He is a statist and not exactly the best guy for this job.

you made it!

KungFooMasta · Post by **KungFooMasta** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:51 pm

I simply think he is a much better choice than Obama.

I think I'm on the same side of the fence.

Evak · Post by **Evak** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:14 pm

I agree that McCain is the best man of the choices. In some ways nice that I can't vote and only get to watch from the sidelines. I wouldn't like to have to make a choice. Same with the last two elections which had weak candidates on both sides.

Interestingly, yesterday when I went to pick up food at the pet shop, there was a discussion at the counter. Everyone was a democrat. Two women were undecided, and would have voted Hillary. The 17 year old wanted Obama, the delivery guy was going to go with McCain because he didn't feel Obama had the stuff needed to be president, and the Store owner was undecided and wished that Edwards was still in the run. The delivery guy agreed, and one of the women thought he would be better than Obama but worse than Hillary.

I wonder if Obama mania is mainly a younger persons ideal. I'm in my mid 30's and don't see many Democrats amongst by peers being that enthusiastic about him. But the majority of our younger siblings and their friends are.

At the moment it looks like Obama is trying to look Presidential by doing a world tour and being seen with important people from around the world. To be honest I'm not sure it's working since more often than not he looks like a big gangly kid rather than a president.

Post by **haffax** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:08 pm

Evak, you posted a list of proposed tax policy changes and their effect. Can you please provide the source for this?
I didn't find this reproduced anywhere in this form and didn't find sources for specific changes. The campaign websites of both candidates are less than helpful. Too much fluff for too little crunch.

mr. iknoweverything · Post by **mr. iknoweverything** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:11 am

I've been to obama's speech at the SiegessÃ¤ule. Well, what can i say: I was sweating like a pig, some retarded fucktard blocked my view on boy wonder, and all he said was... oh, wait, he didnt say anything.

Dunno. Not that i'd care anyway.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:49 am

mr. iknoweverything wrote:I've been to obama's speech at the SiegessÃ¤ule. Well, what can i say: I was sweating like a pig, some retarded fucktard blocked my view on boy wonder, and all he said was... oh, wait, he didnt say anything.

Dunno. Not that i'd care anyway.

Well, what did you expect him to say ?

mr. iknoweverything · Post by **mr. iknoweverything** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:13 pm

dunno. there was this faint hope he would pull a semi-relevant comment i could later tell my grandchildren about, in 50 or so years