Using Gmax to create Ogre objects.

[makeshiftwings]

Man! Instead of talking about blender when only having looked at it for 5 seconds and then saying you understand nothing, which is logical without having looked at any documentation, do the tutorials!

No offense, but I've been trying to use blender for about 4 years now, and I still find it unintuitive and difficult to use. I understood Wings3D and XSI right away; 3dsmax a little slower. I've also used ZBrush, Milkshape3d, Anim8or, Cinema4d, Carrera, and a bit of Maya. Of all of these, I still think Blender is the most annoying and difficult. It's great if some people can use it quickly, but it's so completely backwards compared to the mostly standard interface of every other 3d app out there, that most people aren't going to want to reteach themselves the basics.

Edit: OH, as to the original poster, if you want to try out other free modellers, try http://www.wings3d.com/index.orig.php . It only does modelling with a bit of UVMapping, no animation, but it's one of the fastest and easiest modellers I've used. I made models using Wings, then UVMapped them using LithUnwrap (or UltimateUnwrap3d if you want to pay the $20 for the upgraded version), and animated them in Milkshape3d.

[haffax]

I agree that Blender is not intuitive (but efficient to use) and I also agree, that there are programs out there, that are easier to use and more powerful. But Wings3D isn't any of them. How is it any better? Sorry. I just can't see it.
Wings3d is sparse in edit tools and other features and butt ugly from its interface (first time I tried it I had an Amiga Deja-Vu ) but other than that I found Wings3d and Blender to be quite alike, but Blender superior.

Maybe I just didn't find the right options or so.
So an example, I want to move my object: How can I do this without using the context menu in Wings? Didn't find a way. I can probably write a script that defines the hotkey, but this isn't exactly ease-of-use. So I have to use the context menu, no prob Move -> Free will do the trick.

Blender is almost exactly the same (context menu: transform -> grab/move). Mouse behaves the same. I can use ctrl for constraining the movement in both programs.

But rather than using the context menu for such an often used action, probably the most often used, I can move it by just pressing g (for grab).
I can constraint the axes to x, y, z by pressing exactly these keys. with xx, yy, zz I can constrain the movement to the objects local axes (I didn't find a way to do local coordinate movement in Wings) The learning effort for this is very small. So Blender can do it with context menu, hotkey and now with 2.37 even with transform controls, as known from tools like XSI and such and these are indeed intuitive to use.

The same is true for other transformations and selection modes and such.

I found Blender to be easier to use than Wings3d, more powerful, nicer GUI.

[Darkness]

Yeah, at least someone else sees the problem. They really need to learn from other programs on how to make it easier to use. Like I said, I just don't want to spend my time fighting with a program. I do that enough with Ogre... Heh, heh.


-Darkness

[Aklix]

If you think Max is too much, I wouldn't bother looking at XSI, it's $4,000+

[Kentamanos]

If you think Max is too much, I wouldn't bother looking at XSI, it's $4,000+

XSI "Foundation" is just under $500, and it has plenty of functionality in it...

[alphageek]

They really need to learn from other programs on how to make it easier to use.

Since I am procrastinating at the moment, I will contribute my opinion and experience.

About a month ago I started using Blender seriously. At first, I found the interface hard. However, I already knew that Blender was a very shortcut-oriented editor so there were no tears. Instead, I did all my early modelling with a shortcut reference handy. Whenever I tried to do a basic modelling task, I found the shortcuts for it. Pretty soon, I was Blending at a much faster rate than I had been able to model in other commercial tools.

Subsequently, I grew tired of continually changing configuration values manually in my object config files. Knowing that Blender was Python scriptable, I decided to write my own object export process from Blender. A few days later, and I have a really nice single-click export system working. It doesn't just export meshes, it exports collision hitboxes, configuration files and all the other widgets and stuff required for a full in-game object.

Blender's shortcut-heavy editing style and scriptability with a good general purpose language (cf. crappy MaxScript) have made it an absolute winner for me.

There are definitely some weaknesses with Blender, and it has taken me some time to get where I am but on balance, I wouldn't change tools if everything else was free.

Then again, I like Vi too.

[makeshiftwings]

I agree that Blender is not intuitive (but efficient to use) and I also agree, that there are programs out there, that are easier to use and more powerful. But Wings3D isn't any of them. How is it any better? Sorry. I just can't see it.
Wings3d is sparse in edit tools and other features and butt ugly from its interface (first time I tried it I had an Amiga Deja-Vu ) but other than that I found Wings3d and Blender to be quite alike, but Blender superior.

Maybe I just didn't find the right options or so.
So an example, I want to move my object: How can I do this without using the context menu in Wings? Didn't find a way. I can probably write a script that defines the hotkey, but this isn't exactly ease-of-use. So I have to use the context menu, no prob Move -> Free will do the trick.

Blender is almost exactly the same (context menu: transform -> grab/move). Mouse behaves the same. I can use ctrl for constraining the movement in both programs.

But rather than using the context menu for such an often used action, probably the most often used, I can move it by just pressing g (for grab).
I can constraint the axes to x, y, z by pressing exactly these keys. with xx, yy, zz I can constrain the movement to the objects local axes (I didn't find a way to do local coordinate movement in Wings) The learning effort for this is very small. So Blender can do it with context menu, hotkey and now with 2.37 even with transform controls, as known from tools like XSI and such and these are indeed intuitive to use.

The same is true for other transformations and selection modes and such.

I found Blender to be easier to use than Wings3d, more powerful, nicer GUI.

Well I'm sure everyone will have different opinions, but I think one of the reasons I and many other like Wings is BECAUSE the interface is so sparse. Blender looks like the GUI Fairy got sick and puked up buttons all over the place . Wings lets you define hotkeys for anything in the context menu; you can do it through Options->Hotkeys, and there's also a way to do it just in the menu... i think you highlight whatever in the context menu and press Alt-something... I don't remember exactly. The thing is that Blender pretty much forces you to use Hotkeys and already know all of your available commands if you want to work at any sort of reasonable rate. Wings has everything you need to do in neatly organized context menus, with the option of using nothing but hotkeys after you've got everything memorized. Wings is very much set up to do subdivision edge loop modelling as fast as possible, whereas Blender seems to try to do everything as fast as possible, which makes it more confusing. Wings just has a more natural flow to me as I use it... the model is big and in the center of the screen with no buttons anywhere in sight, everything I need is in the right-click menu, you can quickly move up and down edge loops and select things intuitively. To me Wings vs Blender is like trying to cut a sandwich in half with a knife vs... a blender. Clearly, the blender is more powerful and has more uses, but god is it ever annoying trying to get it to do something as simple as cut a sandwich without taking it apart and rewiring it every five minutes.

[haffax]

Ok, got the hotkey definement in Wings. Higlight entry in menu, press Ins.

I stop arguing about the merits of both programs, just want to get some Blender facts straight, in case people follow this thread.

All Edit tools are available in Blender as a context menu entry too. So if you don't like all the buttons, just close the button view and they are gone, leaving a screen of only the 3d view with the big model in it and all the editing capabilites in the (also neatly organised) context menu you are not at all forced to use hotkeys (but usually one wants to use them soon anyway.)
Subdivision edge loop modelling is very efficient in Blender actually. Everything needed for it in the context menu.

As for cutting the sandwich, I'd use the "Knife subdivision" edit tool. Either in edit context menu: Edges -> Knife subdivison. Or simply shift-k.
The "taking it apart and rewiring it every five minutes." statement is without merit.

[Darkness]

Yeah. I saw that XSI was only $500, which is major savings compared to the $3k for 3D Studio Max.

I'm more than willing to try other free programs, but as it has been said, Blender just doesn't cut it for me.

Still, what format is proper for Ogre? That's something I haven't been able to figure out. I see lots of XML files when I look at the demos, but I'm not sure what format the 3D graphics need to be in.


-Darkness

[haffax]

Darkness, ogre needs its meshes in its own format. the Ogre mesh format. Export is done through special exporters from inside the modelling tools. All discussed tools have such export plugins, but quality, feature completness and support vary greatly. (Best supported are probably XSI, Milkshape and Blender)

A widely used scene format is dotscene. You can decide to use it or roll your own, best have a thorough look at it. So far only 3dsmax and Blender have exporters for it, afaik. A maya exporter is in development afaik, or maybe already done, don't know for sure.

[jacmoe]

If you mean image formats, Ogre will gladly use textures from PNG, JPEG, TGA, BMP or DDS files, including unusual formats like 1D textures, volumetric textures, cubemaps and compressed textures (DXT/S3TC)
.
PNG is a good choice, as is DDS.

[Darkness]

Darkness, ogre needs its meshes in its own format. the Ogre mesh format. Export is done through special exporters from inside the modelling tools. All discussed tools have such export plugins, but quality, feature completness and support vary greatly. (Best supported are probably XSI, Milkshape and Blender)

A widely used scene format is dotscene. You can decide to use it or roll your own, best have a thorough look at it. So far only 3dsmax and Blender have exporters for it, afaik. A maya exporter is in development afaik, or maybe already done, don't know for sure.

Okay. That's what I was after. I was looking at Milkshape, but it seems to only work with low poly models. I keep seeing XSI, so perhaps I'll see about getting the trial and working with that for a little while.

Heh, what I'm finding by working with all of this stuff is that you need like 4 or 5 different programs that each do something different in order to build a scene. Is this normal for 3D development, or just for Ogre. I normally work with 2D images, so this is my first time dealling with 3D objects. I still haven't even figured out how to use the GUI function and making windows you can type in. But that's a topic for another day.


-Darkness

[haffax]

Heh, what I'm finding by working with all of this stuff is that you need like 4 or 5 different programs that each do something different in order to build a scene.

How is that? What do you miss, that 3dsmax (or Maya, XSI or Blender for that matter) can't do?

For our project all kind of 3d modelling, be it mapping or character/item modelling or animation and such, is done in Blender.

[Darkness]

From what I've noticed is that some things can be done in one program, but not in another...exporters seem to be the big thing. Once you model things, you have to be able to actually use them and that takes work. It comes down to what modeling program you use (there are many, unfortunately) and if you can't get plugins and the like, then you'll have to use another program depending on what you're doing. Of course, after you get it in the right format, you have to use the Ogre export tool in order to put the models in a format that Ogre can use (that's a step I didn't do. ).

I guess in this case it's never good to get locked into one program. Gotta be flexible. Heh, heh.


-Darkness

[makeshiftwings]

Ok, got the hotkey definement in Wings. Higlight entry in menu, press Ins.

I stop arguing about the merits of both programs, just want to get some Blender facts straight, in case people follow this thread.

All Edit tools are available in Blender as a context menu entry too. So if you don't like all the buttons, just close the button view and they are gone, leaving a screen of only the 3d view with the big model in it and all the editing capabilites in the (also neatly organised) context menu you are not at all forced to use hotkeys (but usually one wants to use them soon anyway.)
Subdivision edge loop modelling is very efficient in Blender actually. Everything needed for it in the context menu.

As for cutting the sandwich, I'd use the "Knife subdivision" edit tool. Either in edit context menu: Edges -> Knife subdivison. Or simply shift-k.
The "taking it apart and rewiring it every five minutes." statement is without merit.

The thing is... when someone says "I tried blender and i found it really unintuitive", you can't say "No you didn't. You found it intuitive." That's why, no matter how many times this argument is had, with Blender fans mentioning all the hotkeys they know, there are still huge amounts of people like me that still think Blender's interface is awful. I haven't just tried it out for five minutes and given up; like I said, I've struggled with it for years and it constantly annoys me, while other apps like XSI or Wings have been easy as pie. Maybe we all just suffer from some kind of Blender-specific dyslexia, but it's a fact that a whole bunch of people hate the interface.

[Kentamanos]

I think a lot of the Blender users think to themselves "yeah, it used to REALLY be bad..." and therefore sometimes assume that people are basing their opinion on the older versions of Blender without looking at newer ones.

I went thru the Blender gingerbread man tutorial and said to myself "this isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was". While the newer versions are nicer (a LOT nicer), I decided to go ahead and buy XSI personally (I really dig its interface). That said, I'm glad there's a powerful free program like Blender out there.

BTW, I hear there's a blood test now for that Blender-specific dyslexia .

[Darkness]

Everyone has their opinion about what works for them, the beauty of it all is that there are other options for those who don't "get it". I just say, "go for what you know" and enjoy it. Use what works for you and be happy.

Believe me, I wish I could use Blender, but alas.

This is a good thread for options, though. I'm going to try XSI this weekend, because at $500 that's not too bad if it will work. Just not sure about the exporter options...still doing research on it.


-Darkness

[haffax]

Makeshiftwings,
read my posts. I didn't say Blender is intuitive. Actually I said it isn't. So no opinion pingpong here.

My last post was not about arguing, but about mentioning that functionality X and Y are indeed to be found in the context menu.

I understand that preferences vary greatly between the people. The reason I defend Blender so much is, that I don't want newbies, who never tried it and reading all this to get the impression, that they don't need to take a look at it. "Blender? Huh? Ah no, this was this awful program no one can handle. No need to give it a try".

And statements like the "taking it apart and rewiring it every five minutes" don't help really, imho. I actually felt slightly insulted by it. Don't aks me why, I am no psychologist. But it is just not true (tm). I never had to take some something apart and had to rewire it every five minutes. Not even close. And I am willing to bet you hadn't either.

Darkness,

From what I've noticed is that some things can be done in one program, but not in another...exporters seem to be the big thing. Once you model things, you have to be able to actually use them and that takes work. It comes down to what modeling program you use (there are many, unfortunately) and if you can't get plugins and the like, then you'll have to use another program depending on what you're doing. Of course, after you get it in the right format, you have to use the Ogre export tool in order to put the models in a format that Ogre can use (that's a step I didn't do. Sad ).

I guess in this case it's never good to get locked into one program. Gotta be flexible. Heh, heh.

I still don't get it, sorry. Imho you can just use one (not any one) modelling tool for all kind of modelling. (Save some really seldom used specialities maybe)
Actually I find it very fortunate, that there are so many programs out there. Just imagine there was only Blender and no other. Horrible huh?

Just take your time to evaluate them. What is your project about? Does it have any specialised needs maybe?

Edit: added quote for clarification.

[Kentamanos]

As far as XSI goes, check out the video tutorials over at 3D Buzz. They're a little hokey in points (banter between the people recording the demos), but it gives a great overview on how XSI is laid out etc.

Go here to find them:
http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_dl_index.php

[haffax]

This is a good thread for options, though. I'm going to try XSI this weekend, because at $500 that's not too bad if it will work. Just not sure about the exporter options...still doing research on it.
-Darkness

You are on the save side with XSI. The XSI exporter gets much attention from Sinbad. It is kept up-to-date all the time and Sinbad put much effort into supporting the most possible amount of features.