Stress-Test

[CaseyB]

As I understand it the Nazi party was voted in like any other, they just exploited what was already a bad local situation to get people into an extreme right-wing cycle of fear and desperation, exploited for political gain (ring any bells? ).

This is an example of the perfectly normal, democratic process going completely wrong! This is the kind of thing that our Founding Fathers were trying to prevent from happening here.

I don't think the populace having guns would have made any difference at all

Maybe, maybe not at least there wouldn't be a country full of people that fell victim to a vile government!

I personally am hoping that a new US administration will bring some form of sanity back to US foreign policy - the road the Bush administration has been going down is a dead-end.

I personally think that the US should keep it's nose out of other peoples business! We have enough to worry about within our borders with out trying to run everything outside!

[warmi]

Well, I don't think isolationism is going to happen for anyone. Unless someone finds a good way to replace oil real quick

USA is not stealing anyone’s oil - they really aren’t.

They purchase it on the global market, the same market Germany and France is using to buy their oil from and furthermore, they actually pay the same price and if there is any difference in the price of gasoline between say USA or Germany (and there is) it has everything to do with local tax policy and not much to do with access to oil.

So no, it is not about stealing oil but rather about keeping oil available on the market and keeping others from using oil to blackmail half of the planet.

The problem with Iraq is not that US launched some sort of oil-crusade - I wish they did, it would make much more sense in terms of US national interests.

[johnhpus]

As far as gas prices, I think volume has a lot to do with the difference in the U.S. and Germany.

Demand from China and India is driving up prices as much as the lack of world stability.

[warmi]

As far as gas prices, I think volume has a lot to do with the difference in the U.S. and Germany.

Demand from China and India is driving up prices as much as the lack of world stability.

]

No, it is purely tax policy which makes all the difference.

As far as demand from China i India ... yeah it drives up prices... but for everyone.

[warmi]

But surely you're not seriously suggesting that WWII wouldn't have happened if everyone in Germany had owned a gun?

No of course, not... I was merely being a bit sarcastic about taking advice from people who simply have no business trying to teach Americans what is the best way to keep your freedoms intact – guns or no guns

[Praetor]

I'm just gonna have to go with warmi on this one, just for the one reason. It isn't about the citizenry keeping the government in check really. That's what all the democratic process is for. But a government will always eventually go bad. I can't believe that any part of our founding is quaint and no longer important. When you start being less armed than the government you should be worried. When the government becomes oppressive, it isn't just that you can violently overthrow, but that you have a duty to do so. If we are talking about Germany then that is an example of a people who failed to do their duty.

Gas prices are lower in the US because we pay for a large part of it with taxes. So we do pay pretty much pay the same amount, but the cost is hidden from buyers at the pump. I hate it. We should be paying $5-6 at least. People would totally start pressuring for European/Japanese style smaller cars. Small diesels that get huge mileages are unheard of here and it's stupid.

[jjp]

USA is not stealing anyone’s oil - they really aren’t.

I wasn't refering to "stealing oil", Iraq, gasoline price or anything like that. But I think just not caring about the rest of the world doesn't work out if one so dependant on it. The world is a very different place compared to the last time the USA persued isolationism. Back then the USA really had all the resources it needed within it's borders for example.

When you start being less armed than the government you should be worried.

So where do you keep your automatic rifles, private nuclear weapons and F22 for that day when the people you voted for finally go nuts so all righteous citizens (which of course are in mutual agreement that the government must be overthrown and therefor don't for example fight among each other) can do their duty and make their final stand against police and army?

That's it. I am out of here. Peace!

[BigB]

There was this kid, he was 7 year old that was taking a Piano lesson in some school. Near by, another kid (17 year old) was assaulting a gas station, and was shooting around.
One of his lost bullets hit the 7 year old kid in the spine, and the kid was paralysed on the spot.
When a 17 year old has access to guns, something is going wrong in the society.

I saw a shocking story about a German cannibal who was able to find a willing and happy victim ... I mean there must be something really wrong with their society.

I hope you get the point ... you can't just come up with a story you saw and then proceed to make a generalization about 300 million nation.

I got the point, but how many cannibal stories you hear happening in germany ? 1 in the last 50 years ?
How many stories you hear in the US of kids getting into high-schools and shooting around ?
I hope you get my point.

[warmi]

How many stories you hear in the US of kids getting into high-schools and shooting around ?

Not that many. Really ,statistically a simple road trip or even going to your local swimming pool is much more dangerous to a typical kid in USA.

Safe for some hot-spots which affect only tiny percentage , for the great majority of people life tends to be just as safe in USA as it is in Sweden or Germany.

[syedhs]

I really dont get it if somebody try to portray US as a darling in the international politics - come on, everybody on political science is more or less know what is going on. I want to say this more, but I am very busy at the moment, lets see if this thread still get heated up in this weekend.

Iraq? It is technically an invasion - period.

[CaseyB]

So where do you keep your automatic rifles, private nuclear weapons and F22 for that day when the people you voted for finally go nuts so all righteous citizens (which of course are in mutual agreement that the government must be overthrown and therefor don't for example fight among each other) can do their duty and make their final stand against police and army?

It's happened before here in the US when we declared our independence from England. Some Americans were loyalists and fought on the side of the British, but we still got the job done. It is the duty of every American to fight tyranny in government. That starts with voting and political action, but if it comes to having to actually fight to save our country, that too is our duty! It may sound extreme and radical to the rest of the world but, like I said, it was not long ago that we had to do this and that is what prompted the founders of our nation to right certain things into the Constitution to ensure that it would never happen again!

And there are many more reason for firearms than defense. I am an avid hunter, for which I use various firearms as well as a bow and arrows. I enjoy target shooting and trap shooting. Like it or not America has a gun culture and I personally think that is a good thing. Good people should not be punished and restricted because of the things that bad people do!

[KungFooMasta]

Your society is already filled with deadly weapons that everyone hopes they don't have to use, but inevitably they will, and probably for the wrong reason in many cases.

To think that everybody who owns a gun will fire it at somebody is absolutely ridiculous. Having lived in various places in the US throughout my life, I have never known somebody who owned a gun and shot another person. Its not like there is a shooting around every corner.

[warmi]

Its not like there is a shooting around every corner.

It certainly seems like that judging from the crap Hollywood puts out there.

So perhaps, they are the ones to blame for this obvious ignorance regarding gun violence in USA

“Blame Hollywoodâ€

[xavier]

Your society is already filled with deadly weapons that everyone hopes they don't have to use, but inevitably they will, and probably for the wrong reason in many cases.

To think that everybody who owns a gun will fire it at somebody is absolutely ridiculous. Having lived in various places in the US throughout my life, I have never known somebody who owned a gun and shot another person. Its not like there is a shooting around every corner.

Except in Oakland.

There is no denying that there are parts of the States sensible people do not enter without having a good reason and lots of self-awareness. West Oakland is one. South-Central LA is another, and Over-The-Rhine in my hometown of Cincinnati is another.

The problem is that bad news spreads like wildfire, and "blood leads". You don't hear about the hundreds of millions of people across America that don't kill each other (with handguns or otherwise) -- you only hear the sensational (and usually most tragic) stories. Often those stories are focused around schools, and no one really knows why. What we do know is that guns are not the causal factor in shooting rampages, and considering human nature objectively, if someone wants to kill a lot of people at once, there are other alternatives -- homemade bombs (or IEDs if you are in Iraq), or even a Boeing 757 flown into a tall building. Taking away the guns is not going to take away someone's motivation to kill someone else, and it's that issue that needs addressing, not the inanimate object they used. Unfortunately, guns are the easy target, and solving the underlying issues is the hard problem, so we often take the easy way out in terms of blame...because we are all human.

[Kentamanos]

A few quick comments...

"If it Bleeds it Leads": Like xavier said, the media will ALWAYS show the most shocking and depressing stories.

"Policeman of the World": I personally feel like we should get a lot more isolationist. It also annoys me how we're not consistent with the attitude. We do something about Kuwait, and people claim it's only about the oil (it's easy to understand that thinking, and it probably had an insane amount to do with it). People in the US got upset when we tried to do something in Somolia. At the same time, we didn't really step up during the Rawandan genocide. There are a lot of people (especially Hollywood actors and actresses) wanting something done about Darfur too. The UN is supposed to take care of stuff like this, but for some reason the job usually doesn't end up getting done.

Funny note: This thread is causing Ann Coulter ads to come up. Eeeek!

[Kencho]

Johnpus, I owe you an apology. I have serious issues with the 20th century time frames, so that period obviously looked much shorter to me. Next time I'll check my data before

And also one for you and CaseyB. I have misunderstood you about your idea on insanely bombing (though someone else seems to approve it... )

Probably the feeling is different there, but if here anyone might have a gun, I wouldn't step outside home even for a minute. Did you know crossbows were treated as vile weapons in the dark ages, just because anyone could kill at a distance with too much ease, compared to bows? The same is applying to handguns. As Sinbad said, you can kill with almost anything, but a gun makes the task far too easy, and even a small accident can lead easily to death. Back to the start of my impression: I might have a gun to defend myself, but probably my attacker would be both catching me by surprise, and be more skilled when shooting a gun. I would be really scared, so I hope not to live in such a society ever.

[johnhpus]

Johnpus, I owe you an apology. I have serious issues with the 20th century time frames, so that period obviously looked much shorter to me. Next time I'll check my data before Razz

It's cool Kencho. I certainly respect you, and I hope you won't hold a grudge over my barb about Spain and WWII. That didn't really relate to my point, and I let myself get a bit carried away. I'm not used to such off-topic conversation

[Kencho]

Yes, the lounge is really off-topic and too much about politics (which I hate to talk about D: )

[mr. iknoweverything]

it's always the same thing: people from all over the planet come together, can party and work together like best friends, but when it comes to talking about politics you get scared one of them will break a bottle over the other's heads (funny side note, for me as a european the extreme cases are guys from arab countries and, harhar, the US

I guess in the end we all are indoctrinated by the ideologies we most dominantly grew up with, but, taking a look of how well one comes along with each other when leaving away that crap, those ideologies have to be somewhat seriously flawed. i dont sense any real incompatibilities.

to skip a few steps:
ideology sucks. politics is ideology. -->....

[warmi]

Who's breaking bottles ?

Come on , as far as these things go this was a civilized discussion.

[syedhs]

I do think heated but civilized discussion is good for your soul So far, all is well but the topics are maybe a little too serious for what you call relaxed discussion.

[tau]

I'm not an American, so I know I'm a bit of an outsider, but what strikes me most about this discussion is that second amendment you're quoting. It was originally from 1789, and you know... society has somewhat changed since then. Do we still consider a militia to be 'necessary' to the security of a free state? Do we actually even have something you could call a militia nowadays? If the answer to either question is 'no', then how can you use such a law as an argument in such an important social discussion?

I've always found it kind of funny that so many people are still clinging to rules that are so obviously outdated. That doesn't only apply to the US of course; many other countries suffer from similar short-sightedness and lack of common sense, my own included. And what to think of all those devoted religious fanatics? What place do their 'rules' still have in our current society?

US stopped to be progressive long time ago, and it's in regression now... the fall of the roman empire, you know...
The reason people are talking about 2nd Amendment is because they are brainwashed and dont know the real reason for the hand gun allowance. It's all about business, gun manufactures make a lot of money, then they lobby government (heck, it's a "democracy") to keep the second amendment "enforced". Well, US constitution also has a paragraph saying that "an American soldier should not be stationed in a foreign country in time of peace" (this one is not enforced), now (while Iraq is a "war" technically because of 9/11 accusations) why do we still have troops in Europe, Japan, Afghanistan, etc... and have the worst social security situation in the world... we are #1 in number of people in jails, we are #1 country with the highest number of death from privately owned fire arms, we are one of the highest rates of child death (including shootings in schools)... why do we spend 68% of budget for military expenses?... "Who is profiting?" - that's the real question and the real answer to all of your questions...
to add to the list: US lagging behind Europe and Japan in cellular phone and high speed internet markets... Got the picture?

[tau]

It also does have a lot to do with personal liberty, historically that's what the US has been about, there was that blight of slavery which is completely ironic, but that got sorted and there have been civil rights movements for women and minority groups. I personally detest the idea of uniformity! If the government start regulating everything we'll end up in a situation where the amazing cultural diversity that makes up this great country goes away in a blur of reformations and restrictions!

Hmmm... there are plenty countries with same or more personal liberties where government governs and nobody restricted in cultural diversity... the problem with US citizens is that we have being living in isolation (we dont have international news on our local channels except Iraq), so we are just afraid of new changes and afraid to leave our shelves, the world is not the same anymore... there is not red block, the soviet union is gone, time to open ourselves and start solving our own internal problems before we start to "help" other countries that dont need it and dont ask us to do so....

the government should regulate, it's its primarily mission, otherwise, why do we need it? why do we pay taxes? you say restrictions? what kind of restrictions? guns?

the people who is really afraid of the good regulation are those few with lots of money, their freedom is to cheat on taxes and milk government for high payed projects nobody needs, that's the freedom we are talking about, and if we had good government that actually regulates Social Security, Pensions, Health Care, everybody would benefit, and it does not mean that you will have less freedom if you have free-at-service (tax based) regulated health care (when you are not dropped out when you need it); right now, because we have very week government (which only strong in tax collections) our baby-boomers generation is facing lack of Social Security funds they paid all their life for....

I think you dont know what does it mean proper regulations, we are not talking about US becoming a dictatorship, it will never happen despite all the worries.

[tau]

Your society is already filled with deadly weapons that everyone hopes they don't have to use, but inevitably they will, and probably for the wrong reason in many cases.

To think that everybody who owns a gun will fire it at somebody is absolutely ridiculous. Having lived in various places in the US throughout my life, I have never known somebody who owned a gun and shot another person. Its not like there is a shooting around every corner.

Easy access to fire arm - that's the root of the evil. If an unhappy teen finds a gun in his father's closet, he may as well walk into his school and shoot someone he hates. That's how it happens here. Heck, people drive with their guns in glove boxes - I was in a road rage once when a guy pulled a gun at me, that very moment I just realized what does "personal freedom" mean in USA...

[warmi]

so we are just afraid of new changes and afraid to leave our shelves, the world is not the same anymore

We ?

He ... that's all nice and everything but please, speak for yourself only , … otherwise people will think that you are ... you know, one of these clueless presumptuous Americans living in isolation being afraid of change etc ..etc ...