Valve Steam is nice.

[mkultra333]

Hehe, nor I. I don't think that even counts as a strawman so much as a total fabrication on your part. I specifically said the Chinese government used Ghostnet to track the political exiles and break into embassies, and linked to several references on the topic.

At the point in the thread where I made this post, it was an unconnected statement. Maybe it wasn't a strawman, so much as a reductio ad absurdum that failed to relate in any way to the Steam service.

Not adding to my argument, just wanted to clarify a couple of points.

First, my quote there wasn't to the final form of xavier's post but to an earlier, more strongly worded version. After he softened the wording, but before he posted his next reply, I saw he'd changed it and so also softened my own response. Unfortunately, not before it ended up qouted out of context. Not saying the wrong context was deliberate on xavier's part, just bad luck when posts are being edited and posted in rapid succession.

... oh, and reductio ad absurdum means to demonstrate a logical contradiction, thus indicating there must be a false assumption somewhere. No logical contradiction has been demonstrated by xavier, rather the counter argument is of the form "What you're saying is ridiculous!" This is argumentum ad incredulum, or Appeal To Ridicule, which is not a valid argument technique but rather a form of logical fallacy.

Appeal to ridicule... is a logical fallacy which presents the opponent's argument in a way that appears ridiculous, often to the extent of creating a straw man of the actual argument.
...
This is a rhetorical tactic which mocks an opponent's argument, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight the counter-intuitive aspects of that argument...

Although they appear very similar, this fallacy should not be confused with reductio ad absurdum, which is a valid type of logical argument. It should also not be confused with ridiculing the person making the argument, which is a form of the ad hominem fallacy.

And finally, as far as I know, I could not install HL2 Ep1 without connecting to the internet, since it requires Steam be installed first for me to play it. The installation process certainly asks for me to setup a Steam account. Perhaps there are ways around this, but it is technically illegal to circumvent DRM in many countries. A pretty stupid law. While it's true that, once installed, I can play in offline mode, I'm unclear on whether I can permanently keep it in offline mode or whether I have to reconnect at some interval. Someone mentioned having to connect every two weeks earlier.

However, it is nice to see we at least share a dislike of these kinds of DRM systems and agree that they add some unnecessary degree of security vulnerability to the system. Jacmoe mentions that updates are necessary to fix security holes. I agree, but you don't need forced remote connections to apply software patches.

ToeNails:

Lastly, as said earlier about having one computer for games and one for security, I run a three computer system. One computer for programming and video games. A Linux box for the security/internet. And a play computer for all those weird pr0n sites I go to. Granted I just moved, so right now i'm just on my laptop

That's a point I thought about too, that should have been added to my type A reasons for why the government might snoop on you computer: To see what porn you're looking at. This is a far from trivial threat, since porn or evidience of homosexuality can get you arrested in many places. Plus, pr0n sites often fall into the type C category too, and can be lousy with malicious code. I admit, I've had my browser hijacked on occasion, before learning which dark recesses of the net were relatively safe and which were not.

[Kojack]

Well, first up, I referred to null's lack of knowledge on political exiles and xavier's denial that the NSA used remote methods of information retrival. I suppose I can see how someone might deliberate misinterpret that as meaning I meant both of them said both things, but I expected a certain level of, well, honest debate...

Since the people telling me not to worry about how the secret services of the world spy on citizens don't even know what a Tibetan exile is

I referred to nullsquared and xavier specifically, since they've been the main people discussing these recent issues and the ones who claimed not to know what a Tibetan exile is

I'm not deliberately misinterpreting anything. If that's not what you meant, then it shouldn't have been written that way.

[xavier]

So now words are being put into my mouth. Your arguments become weaker and more tangential with every post, mkultra...the more you rely on ad hominem attacks, the less credible you become.

So lets bring this back into focus.

Since you introduced the topic of Tibetan exiles, can you provide an instance where persecution of same was performed via Valve's Steam product?

[jacmoe]

Since you introduced the topic of Tibetan exiles, can you provide an instance where persecution of same was performed via Valve's Steam product?

Fragged by Steam..

[mkultra333]

So now words are being put into my mouth. Your arguments become weaker and more tangential with every post, mkultra...the more you rely on ad hominem attacks, the less credible you become.

So lets bring this back into focus.

Since you introduced the topic of Tibetan exiles, can you provide an instance where persecution of same was performed via Valve's Steam product?

Hehe. As I said before, you've great difficulty moving from specific example to generic concept. What I provided was an example of how security vulnerabilities in a system have been exploited by governments to spy on people. You may as well demand I give an example of Steam downloading mp3's with malicious ID3v2 tags.

However, I'm glad to see that the main agument against me continues to be Appeal to Ridicule (A wink to Jacmoe there too ). It means you don't have any agument of substance.

[:wumpus:]

... just like it would happen with any closed source software, if the source code would be released someday.
And I really doubt that anyone, who is interested in breaking into your computer would have to rely on you playing Q3A.

You'd be surprised. People that want to break in use anything they can use. Obscure, old programs are used in many cases, especially as the vulnerabilities are well known.

Any software contains security holes, so the only way to secure your computer is to disconnect it from the internet, build out every wireless technology that is attached to it, and detaching the power cable wouldn't hurt either.

Of course, perfect security doesn't exist. Not in the real world, not in the digital world. Security is about making things as difficult (and thus costly) as possible. If you see a potential security problem and you can avoid it, you will make it more difficult for potential attackers.

Nothing is completely safe, why would this mean we either have to completely isolate ourselves (paranoid hermit) or expose ourselves to everything and not worry (naive). There's always a middle road, right?

I see it like this: If Valve steam, or other games, provide a potential extra way in which people unknown to you can submit code that could gain access to private data, it's better to isolate it on a separate machine.

[xavier]

However, I'm glad to see that the main agument against me continues to be Appeal to Ridicule (A wink to Jacmoe there too ). It means you don't have any agument of substance.

On the contrary. If you read my posts, you'll find I am not a Steam fan either. I am simply trying to clarify how it relates to Tibetan exiles, a subject you introduced into the debate. You've now clarified that, we can move on.

That said, I think you'll find that Steam is a "pull" system, not a "push" system (I could be wrong on this), so it would be awfully hard to exploit when no ports are sitting open to which to connect.

So unless the Tibetan exiles are playing TF2 and their persecutors are somehow exploiting the open multiplayer ports while they are playing, the example you provide as anecdotal evidence of system vulnerabilities is largely overstated in this thread (it actually has been all along, you simply refuse to acknowledge it).

[:wumpus:]

That said, I think you'll find that Steam is a "pull" system, not a "push" system (I could be wrong on this), so it would be awfully hard to exploit when no ports are sitting open to which to connect.

"I think" explains the whole problem. You might do research into it, and come to the conclusion that Steam is very secure. I wouldn't know... but assumptions are dangerous. Usually, you cannot make such assesments easily, especially about closed source systems.

Also, a system doesn't need to be 'push' to be dangerous. There have been enough vulnerabilities in pull-kind systems, like web browsers and applets. Most of them are, these days, as there are hardly programs left that open ports. Many vulnerabilites involve tricking the user or system to pull a certain piece of data (or code). It could be that steam is vulnerable to this, it could be not, we don't know, right?

[xavier]

And if Steam is allowing malware to be "pulled" to client systems, I also "think" we would have heard about it by now. And the possibility of targeted attacks on a certain machine is highly unlikely -- that would indicate that Steam itself is compromised -- again, something that we likely would have heard about by now.

Some things just stand to reason -- one need not cite and certify everything stated.

[:wumpus:]

And if Steam is allowing malware to be "pulled" to client systems, I also "think" we would have heard about it by now

The most dangerous things are things that haven't happened yet, or which aren't widely known yet. Reducing risk isn't only about reducing risk of things that are well-known, but also thinking ahead to things that might happen in the future.
We might think that Stream doesn't contain anything to target specific machines, but who knows, until you have looked into the code you can only guess. The people that spend their time diving into reverse engineering tools and finding vulnerabilities know, but they won't tell you or me.
Then again, something doesn't have to target specific machines to be dangerous... it could be used to send something that targets specific machines, or use some other technique, it has all been done before on similar systems. It only takes one lax check with respect to hash values...

[mkultra333]

At the risk of re-opening a thread in which I managed to alienate 90% of the best Ogre programmers, I thought I'd revisit this topic just to say that I've changed my mind.

I still dislike the added security chink, and my first experiences were still dreadful as far as poor connections and long, faulty installs. And the idea of games being a "service" rather than a product you posses is something that I'm still not thrilled about. However since then I've also experienced the positive side of Steam.

Started when a friend gave me Left 4 Dead on DVD. I grudgingly installed it despite it being a Steam game, but it went relatively smoothly. And the game was great. So I got L4D2 on DVD, another Valve/Steam game, and that was great too. In fact, those two are some of the most fun I've ever had playing compute games.

So I browsed the Steam store. Killing Floor was on sale for $6. That was my first download only Steam game, and it was pretty good being able to just grab a game that night without having to go to the shops. I didn't like the game much, but at $6, who cares? It was good just to be able to try it.

Next I got the Orange Box, since I hadn't played the original Half Life 2 yet. Totally downloaded, only $20 or so. Played Portal, that was fun. Haven't gotten around to Half Life 2 because Team Fortress 2 has taken me over.

I think Team Fortress 2 is Valve/Steam at it's finest. This is where the "game as service" pays dividends. Even though it's been 3 years, the game is still being supported really well, with new maps, and all the new class updates. (If only they'd shown the same love to L4D...) Plus the persistent equipment you find, and the game stats (both personal and for TF2 in general) mean having to be connected to a central database makes sense.

So, I no longer think Valve/Steam is garbage. Even though I stand by my original complaints and concerns, I also now see the upside as well. Although from a PC developer point of view, I hope Steam don't become too dominant (if it isn't too late for that already) because being forced to go through the one distributor is a bit of a worry.

[jacmoe]

Now I can finally mark this topic solved in my personal list of topics which needs fixing!
What a relief!

Even though I share the same sentiment about a possible monopoly, Steam does have its merits.
As a DRM it sucks a lot less than most - if not all - of the competition.
And it's very convenient.

The only thing I really don't like is that the price for a game bought through Steam is about the same price as a 'physical' game - which is just plain wrong!

Same goes for digital books, btw..

[Kojack]

The only thing I really don't like is that the price for a game bought through Steam is about the same price as a 'physical' game - which is just plain wrong!

It depends on the game. Some are much cheaper than local (australian) stores, some are more expensive, and sometimes it's cheaper to order a physical copy from england and have it shipped over here (I did that with Arma 2, bought it from Zavvi in england. Visa thought Zavvi was a scam and shut down my entire bank account without warning, I had to explain to the bank that it was ok).

The steam summer sale was absolutely awesome. Getting The Witcher for under $7, GTA4 for $7.49, etc was great, but it makes me wonder just how much of that money actually does to the devs.

To recap what I said a year ago in here:
Steam Pros: I can see that still none of my friends have beaten my Portal achievements.
Steam Cons: Not being able to choose install location is incredibly stupid.

I have multiple hard drives and often multiple partitions on each drive. Having everything install to c: when I've got terrabytes free on other drives in damn annoying.

[Thieum]

I have solved the installation location by creating a symbolic link from the steamapps folder to a folder in an other disk. It is on windows 7 and if you have XP I don't know if the system supports well symbolic links.

[Kojack]

I've done it in the past with NTFS junctions, but they are a bit dangerous.

[betajaen]

You can just move the entire steam folder to where ever you like, even if it's been installed. Then run Steam, and it'll figure itself out. I have a dedicated partition for steam now "Y:", it used to be on my applications partition "S:" until I ran out of room. Worked fine when I moved it over.

Junctions are a bit of a pain, but I have a nice toolbar icon for me that does it in one click. I use it for everything; most of my windows profile, firefox stuff, pictures,media,etc., except for Steam.

[haltendehand]

You can just move the entire steam folder to where ever you like, even if it's been installed. Then run Steam, and it'll figure itself out. I have a dedicated partition for steam now "Y:", it used to be on my applications partition "S:" until I ran out of room. Worked fine when I moved it over.

Wait a moment, how much partitions do you have?

[betajaen]

Seven.

[Kojack]

Seven.

17 at the moment (15 windows, 2 linux) across 6 hard drives.


I've moved steam around in the past (forgot that that worked though, thanks for reminding me), but it still requires all steam games to be in the steam directory. I'd prefer to be able to have games installed anywhere.

[betajaen]

Seven.

17 at the moment (15 windows, 2 linux) across 6 hard drives.

Nice!
I have two copies of windows on mine, but one is just an old copy of Vista which I forgot to remove when I upgraded to Windows Seven. I added another hard-drive just for the operating system. I recounted and it's eight. I forgot "N: Development".

As you all know I come from an Amiga background, where partitions, drives and assigns are the same thing and it's common to have 10-20 of them: System:, RAM:, RAD:, Work: Env: EnvArchive:, Prefs:, S:, C:, Libs:, Devs:, etc.

[Kojack]

The 6 drives I currently have plugged in only use 5-9 watts each, so 6 of them isn't a problem for my 1kwatt power supply.