Ogre to tap into FX composer 2

[Lee04]

Hi

I just love all the features of the new Nvidia fx composer.

Ogre community should make the very most of it.

Like extending composer to allow Ogre files meshes and shaders both import and export.

One of my favorite features is # Vertex Stream Remapper and
the Artist-friendly visual shader authoring and all the file formats it's support... Python scriptable thats nice


Key Features of FX Composer 2

* Cross-API Support
o DirectX 9 and OpenGL
o HLSL, COLLADA FX Cg, CgFX shading languages
* User-Friendly Shader Authoring
o Shader Creation Wizard with templates
o Full-featured Code Editor
+ Code folding for functions, techniques and passes
+ Tab stop display
+ Line number display
+ External file modification monitoring
+ Jump-to-include files
o Properties panel for tweaking shader parameters
+ High dynamic range color picker
o Material panel for managing materials
+ Display of per-material textures
+ Tone mapping for per-material textures
o Easy material creation and management interface
o Hundreds of sample shaders
+ NVIDIA Shader Library integration
+ Sample projects ranging from simple to complex
o Advanced scene manipulation
+ Create and manipulate basic geometric shapes, lights, and cameras
+ Import .3ds, .fbx, .dae, .x, .obj files
+ Drag-and-drop light binding
+ Drag-and-drop texture binding
+ Skinning and animation
o Texture Viewer
+ Support for .dds, .jpg, .bmp, .png, .tif
+ Drag-and-drop textures onto object materials
o mental millâ„¢ Artist Edition
+ Artist-friendly visual shader authoring
+ Ability to export to FX Composer via CgFX and HLSL
o Convenient Start Page
+ Recent projects
+ Quick Start Tutorial
+ Quick links to User Guide and other useful documentation
+ Single-click access to open effects and create new ones
+ Single-click access to open COLLADA documents
o Integrated Shader Performance Tuning via NVIDIA ShaderPerf 2.0
+ Support for CgFX, COLLADA FX, and HLSL shaders
+ Compare shader techniques across multiple GPUs
+ View data in tables or graphs
+ See shader throughput, register usage, instruction counts, and branching performance
o Convenient Pipeline Integration Features
+ Semantic and Annotation remapping
+ Advanced Scripting Support
# Full Python scripting
# Custom toolbar for scripting support
+ Extensible plug-in Architecture with SDK
o Complete COLLADA support
+ Project and Asset Management (Project Explorer and Library Viewer)
# Author COLLADA assets
# Create and remove COLLADA documents
# Move, delete, and copy COLLADA assets across COLLADA documents
# View COLLADA assets by category
+ COLLADA format support
# Material Instance Scene Binding
# Material Instance Vertex Binding
# Skinning
# Triangulation with holes
# Support for rendering COMMON Profiles
# Vertex Stream Remapper
+ Conversion of CgFX to COLLADA FX Cg
o Comprehensive Undo/Redo support
o Comprehensive Documentation
+ User Guide
+ Quick Tutorial

[xavier]

Hi

I just love all the features of the new Nvidia fx composer.

Ogre community should make the very most of it.

Go for it. Let us know when you have the importers done.

[Falagard]

Hi

I just love all the features of the new Nvidia fx composer.

Ogre community should make the very most of it.

Go for it. Let us know when you have the importers done.

I agree, I can't wait to see what you come up with Lee!

[Praetor]

I think there was already a discussion recently about this, and some people said they were interested in actually making the integration. Certainly a great tool, though.

[Lee04]

But seriouslly is there a way to get Ogre models into the tool?

Why work around with different file formats? Why not just use Ogres own format an one stop solution?

Preformance hud is very good for creating shaders with I suspect.
Not just profiling them. Because you can edit and continue and do profiling on the go.

That's so cool.

Yes I have read the other thread, but I havn't seen any discussion there on importing Ogre model format.


How much money and time didn't it take to develop a tool like FX composer?

It would be silly not to support it utterly.

@Falgard:

I rather wait this time to see what you do this time around.

Last time I implement things like engineers att NVidia told me between four eyes.

You guys come up with the cheapest cheets to do it anyway, from the simple samples readly avaible anywhere.

I don't settle for halfway solutions, this would take me ages to do, compared to the cheats you guys know and love.

[xavier]

But seriouslly is there a way to get Ogre models into the tool?

Why work around with different file formats? Why not just use Ogres own format an one stop solution?

Why not just use the COLLADA import that already works incredibly well in FXC2.... COLLADA, whose export is supported in just about any modeling package that might be used. Why complicate matters with .mesh import?

[Lee04]

Yes it can import many formats
Myself use obj a lot.

Collada is an extra export.

Can Ogre load Collada directly yet? I don't think so.

[xavier]

You mean this plugin?

http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/Og ... ADA_Plugin

[Kojack]

I had a look at the fx composer 2 sdk yesterday (until it killed my pc and I had to reboot, but that was Old Windows Disease's fault).

The single help file is just a list of classes and methods, zero information on how to actually use them. It looked completely useless.
There's also a solution of projects for stuff like importing maya and max files, but the examples are undocumented, poorly (or not at all) commented, and all are in C#, which I don't know.

So... it's a very cool tool (I still find render monkey to be easier to use, but I like fx composer's profiling tools), shame about the crappy sdk.

[Evak]

what I like about FX composer is that it loads all my .FX files created in various Apps.

One of the things I hate about render monkey is that it loads nothing at all. So your stuck with rendermonkey to create your shaders. Which is pretty awful really.

I'm hoping someone creates an FXcomposer to Ogre .material, .program, .shader files. That would really open up shaders for Ogre3D.

Loading Ogre media into FX composer wouldn't be a priority, but then I'm spoilt by ofusion which offers a really nice shader parameter editor for Ogre shaders that works in realtime.

[xavier]

See recent thread including comments from an nVidia employee on the FXC project who has volunteered to aid in any way possible.

[btmorex]

Figured I'd mention this since I've seen basically the same thread about this 4 or 5 times now.

The quickest, easiest, and surest way to get something done is to do it yourself or pay someone else to do it for you. I'm pretty sure there aren't just a group of experienced ogre developers waiting around the forums looking for something to do. Everyone has their own project that they're busy with.

That said, based on the interest in this, it will probably get done eventually by someone who decides they really need it, but that could takes months or years to happen.

To the people who want this done: why not go to the recruiting forums and offer some money for it? Or do it yourself?

[Falagard]

@Falgard:

I rather wait this time to see what you do this time around.

Last time I implement things like engineers att NVidia told me between four eyes.

You guys come up with the cheapest cheets to do it anyway, from the simple samples readly avaible anywhere.

I don't settle for halfway solutions, this would take me ages to do, compared to the cheats you guys know and love.

That's why we love/hate you Lee, because every post you make is a backhanded compliment. Either that or a direct insult.

I have no interest in making an FX composer plugin since I have no use for it, but I'd like to see what the community could come up with.

You, on the other hand, usually make requests from the community or directly to the Ogre Team without releasing anything yourself and then proceed to insult them/us in the process. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

From now on when I release code as LPGL I'm tempted to put an exclusion clause in there that says: "Anyone can use this code, as pursuant to the LGPL license above, except for Lee04 because he insulted me too much."

[lodi]

I rather wait this time to see what you do this time around.

Last time I implement things like engineers att NVidia told me between four eyes.

You guys come up with the cheapest cheets to do it anyway, from the simple samples readly avaible anywhere.

I don't settle for halfway solutions, this would take me ages to do, compared to the cheats you guys know and love.

So you assert that you'll use what ogre devs create, that the devs make halfway solutions, but that you won't settle for a halfway solution. Frankly, I don't know if I'm more offended by the insulting (and quite overt!) elitism or by the lack of mathematical consistency...

[xavier]

So you assert that you'll use what ogre devs create, that the devs make halfway solutions, but that you won't settle for a halfway solution. Frankly, I don't know if I'm more offended by the insulting (and quite overt!) elitism or by the lack of mathematical consistency...

<---- Sample of my game art 160 polygons + normal map. 3DSMax. I am looking for work art or Ogre, C++. Intersting projects and good pay is a must.

I've always been put off by his elitism.

[Evak]

I just assume he isn't being intentionaly uncouth on the forums, and like me, his being an artist leaves him in the awkward position of not being able to code much if anything, in my case I struggle converting the most basic FX file to a shader.

I managed a diffuse color, diffuse texture, and masking two textures shader by myself so far, after creating them in a node based editor that creates .FX files. One of our coders spent a week learning the basics and converting a couple of more tricky shaders I created in the same tool.

Shaders are a pig to use, especially when you can't easily tweak them yourself and have to ask for help if I want to add ambient light or a second UV channel.

[Praetor]

From what I can gather, FX Composer would prefer to output to collada and collada FX and not even produce the regular .fx format at all.

[xavier]

It definitely speaks fluid COLLADA -- with how we are retooling our asset pipeline for full COLLADA throughout, that works very well fo rus.

[Evak]

hmmph, looks like they took out cgfx and HLSL FX saving. At least it loads .FX files, which is better than can be said for rendermonkey. This would still enable you to load .FX and convert to Ogre.

A bit disappointing if it only saves natively in collada.

Don't know of any artist tools that create collada shader files .

[xavier]

No it has full support for CgFX that I can tell -- it definitely wants you to have it installed when you install FXC. Can't say for sure on HLSL .fx -- my guess is that they will probably just stay with the Cg support in the future.

[Kojack]

Well, FXC2 can load, save or create new fx files fine, but it can't convert other types to fx. It can convert fx into cgfx and cgfx into collada fx.
So you can get it to work in fx, as long as your shader starts as fx.
You only get the "save ______.fx as" if you have an fx effect active in the edit window.

[Lee04]

Ogre XML file format should be easy to import meshes from to FX composer. I am not suggesting the binary format.

Just to keep the number of files in a project to a smaller number.
Big projects tend to have so many art asset files anyway.

@gandalf:

I've always been put off by his elitism.

I don't like elitism either nor spending two years working on a fullfeathered feature and them having someone claiming they have the exact same feature (do not kid yourself it's not even close).

That doesn't stop me from using someone else quick and dirty solution if it takes me less than an hour and if I can replace it later for the real deal... so I don't think thats inconsistent or unlogical.

Don't hate someone that puts down the time and not to mention the money to do a proper implementation.

Next time I do something that should be LGPL:ed, I suggest you join and we will LGPL it.

Right know I am doing massive crowd system including a home grown GPU based rigged body physics system a big project need a lot of help.

We can LGPL it if I see more of the community involved in a big way.

I have a lot of neat demos for it done by me and four students they have done there parts as there final year exam at my company.

It includes GPU based ridged physics, massive crowd animation system, special instancing shading and lighting system and GPU based massive crowd AI.

So far time spent, three years...It would be very nice as LGPL.

But the efforts needed from the community to make it LGPL is probably over the top.

Today the schedule for Ogres future is aggressive hopefully I had something to do with that.

My latest project require Ogre to support hardware instancing.

Why is it that these special case rendering API's have a hard time fitting into the rendering internals?













'

[Falagard]

I don't like elitism either nor spending two years working on a fullfeathered feature and them having someone claiming they have the exact same feature (do not kid yourself it's not even close).

So in other words:
"I don't like elitism either but your isn't even close to as good as mine".

Prove it.

[collada]

A bit disappointing if it only saves natively in collada.

Don't know of any artist tools that create collada shader files .

Max and Maya have full support for COLLADA FX files with the colladaMax and colladaMaya plug-ins
For more information please check the
COLLADA product list

You can create COLLADA (FX) files with fxcomposer 2.0 and load it in Maya, or create it in Maya, or create a library of FX in fxcomposer and apply it to your assets in Max or Maya, or export your asset (including animation) in COLLADA and use it in FXComposer.

COLLADA FX advantage is that is saves not only the FX, but also all the links between the assets and the FX, including animations (you can animate a shader parameter if you want to , and save both animation and shader in COLLADA).

-- Remi

[lodi]

do not kid yourself it's not even close

Ha! I'm not even sure what exactly we're comparing but that's the epitome of "I don't care *how* big yours is, mine is bigger."

We can LGPL it if I see more of the community involved in a big way.

Involved in *what*?? How can the community get involved in something that's not open sourced?

Maybe you should show us what you're working on that "requires" every next-gen feature under the sun?[/quote]