the arrogant european - clichee or truth?

mr. iknoweverything · Post by **mr. iknoweverything** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:39 am

The title says it all. Noticed those remarks in the other thread

My points:

1. i think people on those boards here are smart enough not to show any elitist attitudes towards other countries. moronic thing.

2. criticizing the US doesnt mean a European considers Europe to be better.
Heck. Post WW2 Europe is US2.0. Europeans know there's plenty going wrong on our side of the pond.

so much for now

Post by **xavier** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:45 am

There is a general sense I get in the communications from those born and raised in Europe, when talking matters of public policy (and in some other matters) that Europeans see themselves as superior to Americans.

Of course, Ugly Americans are no better, but in the threads you reference, there is definitely a general sense I get that "us stupid hick Yanks don't have a clue how to run a country and ought just to let the Europeans take over again".

My $0.02.

Post by **Jabberwocky** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:48 am

I really think this is a terrible thread, and can't imagine any constructive discussion coming out of it.

My vote is to have a moderator close it.

In fact, lets just save everyone a lot of time, and agree up front that everyone hates everyone else, and thinks their countries are the source of all evil on the planet.

--edit--
Except Canada, which is obviously superior to all your crappy countries.

mr. iknoweverything · Post by **mr. iknoweverything** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:01 am

dunno. the other discussions are already showing signs of bad vibrations, so why not create a separate thread to release the steam.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:41 am

You have asked for it â€¦

criticizing the US doesnt mean a European considers Europe to be better.

Criticizing the US is a national past time over there.

Two examples.

2003 â€“millions of people come out on the streets protesting what was a basically not much more than a long coming judgment day for a particularly nasty dictator.
Now .... I don't think it was particularly smart move on the part of US government .. but hey, morally it wasn't that big of a deal , certainly not enough to warrant this kind of moral posturing coming out of Europe â€¦

1991-1998 - a violent conflict bordering on genocide is taking place just a few hundred miles away from Vienna and Rome.
One would think that the ongoing mass murder and rape happening right in the middle of Europe would at least outrage enough people to have a demonstration or two â€¦ but nope â€¦ nothing.

Now , can anyone from Europe try to explain to me what was so different in 2003 that caused millions of Europeans to literally go berserk against a potentially minor war on another continent when the same people clearly didnâ€™t give a damn about a real genocide happening in their own neighborhood ?

Post by **Jabberwocky** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:07 am

warmi wrote: Criticizing the US is a national past time over there.

It's pretty hypocritical to blame Sinbad for making ignorant comments about America for a barely offensive opinion about American health care, then come out with a post like this. It actually seems like you're the one whose bursting at the seams to criticize Europe.

I told you this thread was no good.

---------

For those of you reading this who don't know many Americans, there's actually a lot of cool ones who can have a rational discussion about their country or foreign policy without freaking out, and accusing the rest of world of being out to get them. Don't let the posts here colour your opinion too much.

Post by **xavier** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:10 am

Jabberwocky wrote: For those of you reading this who don't know many Americans, there's actually a lot of cool ones who can have a rational discussion about their country or foreign policy without freaking out

Can you send a few of those out to Berkeley, please? The shopowners are getting tired of the freak-outs driving off all of their customers...

I think you'll find that the typical American, not just a few, can be categorized as cool and rational.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:16 am

then come out with a post like this.

Again you have a problem with my post ?

Is there anything factually incorrect there or are you just stocking me on this forum with meaningless and picky comments without ever bothering to address anything beyond semantics and "oh you'r so rude" remarks ?

Post by **Jabberwocky** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:19 am

xavier wrote: I think you'll find that the typical American, not just a few, can be categorized as cool and rational.

Agreed.

It all goes back to how a few silly ones can make a bad name for a everybody else. Kind of like those damn "nut case" environmentalists.

Post by **xavier** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:28 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
xavier wrote: I think you'll find that the typical American, not just a few, can be categorized as cool and rational.
Agreed.

It all goes back to how a few silly ones can make a bad name for a everybody else. Kind of like those damn "nut case" environmentalists.

Exactly.

Evak · Post by **Evak** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:51 am

there are rotten fruit in every country. It's unfortunate that they also seem to be the most vocal and attention seeking.

I've lived here for almost 10 years now, having come from England. I don't see any of the stereotypes. Perhaps California is different but everyone seems to be in pretty good shape and mostly healthier. Only thing I feel isn't so good is that people seem to think theres somethig wrong with age, and old things, whether its people or material things.

CaseyB · Post by **CaseyB** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:12 am

Evak wrote:Only thing I feel isn't so good is that people seem to think theres somethig wrong with age, and old things, whether its people or material things.

I agree with that! The reason that I love to visit Europe is because of the history that surrounds you! In the US we tend to implode beautiful old buildings to put up skyscrapers and parking garages!

Post by **Kencho** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:03 pm

Hahaha, I can't believe a thread like this has come out! As it's pretty obvious we are superior by several magnitude orders to you

Just kidding

There are stereotypes everywhere. I know of classmates visiting friends at Canada, and they telling them "look, those are traffic lights. Do you have any of those there?". Not to mention they believed there are bulls running down every single street here

IMO such stereotypes are pretty out of place nowadays. We're living in a recently born global culture, so country frontiers are more and more diffuse every day.

I fortunately have good friends all around the globe. After having lived several years with those stereotypes in mind, meeting such people really lets you know you have to look into the person, not its country. I've known dozens of cool people, as well as dozens of idiots, and can't allocate them into a single country or continent. Both are everywhere.

I have many things I don't like about US, the same as with Japan, Europe... It's just that certain parts of their (our) cultures doesn't match my principles, and as such, after a thought, I can't support them

I agree this thread will bring quite a war to the forums, so remain serious in the discussion, and have the rules in mind.

KungFooMasta · Post by **KungFooMasta** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:54 pm

Kencho for president!

Not to mention they believed there are bulls running down every single street here

My friend video taped an event where he and everybody in the streets tried to run past an irritated bull, pretty dangerous. He is from Valencia, I forgot all the details, but I think its a yearly celebration or something.

cdkeito · Post by **cdkeito** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:55 pm

oh yes,
tomorrow i'm going rafting on the Alps with my gondola while singing and eating spaghetti!

seriously, the only thing i don't like are warmongers.
and Kencho is right, even if politician don't want it (and battle it), nowadays there aren't nations as they defined them in the past, now there are only cultures.

PS: for the 1991 war near here, don't "trust" to much medias... (as ever, just try reading two different journals about a single fact!)

O Sole mio, o sole...

Fuinelen · Post by **Fuinelen** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:35 pm

cdKeito, if you were here, you could hang around smoking pot after climbing up coconut trees to collect fresh bounties (the choco thingy) and bottles of baccardi (which, seriously, nobody would even touch around these parts of the world).

I agree with cdKeito and Kencho. It's a matter of culture, but idiots and cool people can be found anywhere.

Though, of course, being asked "Are you intending to kill the president of the USA?" when flying to the United States of America, is not going to help with mutual understanding.

johnhpus · Post by **johnhpus** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:45 pm

Though, of course, being asked "Are you intending to kill the president of the USA?" when flying to the United States of America, is not going to help with mutual understanding.

Wait, people are actually asked that kind of thing on the way in? I can't imagine the assassin who is too stricken by conscious to lie.

Post by **Jabberwocky** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:52 pm

Kencho wrote:I know of classmates visiting friends at Canada, and they telling them "look, those are traffic lights. Do you have any of those there?"

I've been to Spain.

Sure, you have things like "traffic lights" and "speed limits", but no Spanish people actually pay any attention to them.

Jerky · Post by **Jerky** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:42 am

I think a lot (but not all) of the bad opinion have formed more recently, since 9/11. For the most part, I tend to see the same complaints about the USA coming from all countries. In my project, I've probably worked with about 75 people, 50 of whom are not american, and consist of about 20 or more countries, and it is very clear that most of them dislike our foreign policy, our leaders, our attitude, but not necessarily our country. Granted, this is still a pretty small sampling, but I don't think many people can deny it.

Now this may sound very arrogant, so don't take it the wrong way. I think most people are jealous, at least on a subconscious level, and think we Americans don't deserve the good things we have, since we are arrogant jerks

. Again, I am not trying to be an "arrogant jerk" by saying that, so let it be known that I lived in the Philippines for 2 years and would actually love to move out of the USA soon. My world experience is a little more cultured than most American's but probably nothing compared to the rest of you.

I do, however, tend to notice small things from the patterns that people use in their diction, so drawing from my experiences talking with people from all over the world, this is where I made that theory. I really doubt any foreigner (as we like to call them) would admit to being jealous, even in the slightest, but I'd ask if anyone else might see this as a possible cause.

On the flip side, most people whose standard of living is below that of the USA, tend to like anything American (again, from my experience in Asia). In the Philippines, they would literally give their right arm to come move to the USA.

Post by **xavier** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:49 am

Jerky wrote: On the flip side, most people whose standard of living is below that of the USA, tend to like anything American (again, from my experience in Asia). In the Philippines, they would literally give their right arm to come move to the USA.

And you can't keep out the Mexicans -- they understand that this is the "land of opportunity". That, and, of course, the fact that it's rather conveniently located directly to their north...

Jerky · Post by **Jerky** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:11 am

xavier wrote:And you can't keep out the Mexicans -- they understand that this is the "land of opportunity". That, and, of course, the fact that it's rather conveniently located directly to their north...

LOL, right. Can't forget the other "Americans," can we? Can't believe I forgot about mi hermanos del sur. Heck, I was born and raised in SoCal too

. I guess moving away made me forget.

Post by **xavier** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:18 am

Jerky wrote:
xavier wrote:And you can't keep out the Mexicans -- they understand that this is the "land of opportunity". That, and, of course, the fact that it's rather conveniently located directly to their north...
LOL, right. Can't forget the other "Americans," can we? Can't believe I forgot about mi hermanos del sur. Heck, I was born and raised in SoCal too . I guess moving away made me forget.

Heh, it's not just Cali either -- I moved out here from Ohio where it seemed to me that there was just as large an itinerant-worker population as there is here...

gugus · Post by **gugus** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:22 am

With the title of the topic,we could say the same of americans

.
I don't believe Europeans are arogants(at least people i know).In fact,it's just that humans don't trust people they don't know,and i think it's the same beetween European contries and beetween Europe and US.

cdkeito · Post by **cdkeito** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:25 pm

jealous of what ?

jealous of things like opening an US base in my country every two years, because of their "war"? or maybe because they come, kill (i'm not a judge and i condemn noone) people and go home "clean" (i'm not a judge and i condemn noone) ?

sorry guys, but i "like" my country, or at least i like my house.
Every country has good things and bad ones, i like more people (more if female) then their state borders.

Fuinelen · Post by **Fuinelen** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:52 pm

johnhpus wrote:
Though, of course, being asked "Are you intending to kill the president of the USA?" when flying to the United States of America, is not going to help with mutual understanding.
Wait, people are actually asked that kind of thing on the way in? I can't imagine the assassin who is too stricken by conscious to lie.

Taken from "Welcome to the United States" from the Zappa album "The Yellow Shark". It is no myth, or at least it wasn't ... I had to fill that form too. Maybe it has been modified since 9/11. As this is a transcript of the Zappa rendition of this master piece of useless bureaucracy, it might have some (minor) alteration, mostly in audience participation lines I forgot to remove.

Welcome to the United States

This form must be completed by every nonimmigrant visitor not in possession of a visitor's visa.

Type or print legibly in pen in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. USE ENGLISH.

Item 7 - If you are entering the United States by land, enter LAND in this space. If you are entering the United States by ship, enter SEA in this space.

Do any of the following apply to you? (Answer Yes or No)

A. Do you have a communicable disease; physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict?

B. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or ever been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more?

Answer Yes or No.

Or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?

Answer Yes or No.

C. Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved, in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?

Answer Yes or No.

Thank you very much! And welcome to the United States!