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... and I don't mean the movie, which I hope we can all agree is terrible.



I understand that since Bush Jr. took over, many British people (and some Americans) may half-jokingly wish that the U.S. never gained independence. But the past eight years aside, how do you British feel about it?

I always hear that our media bleeds out through the rest of the world, and if that's true, then you guys must see a lot of the celebration and patriotic movies that make the rounds each year. I've always wondered if the British didn't perhaps see that as a slight 'f-you', considering the event we're celebrating happened to involve the killing of British soldiers, and at the time the rebels in the colonies were both British traitors and "founding fathers".

When you hear the name George Washington, what associations does that bring to mind? Even though some of us are aware that ole' George really wasn't much of a general (or at least wasn't a roundly successful one), he and the rest of them are held up almost as demi-gods. We're taught in school to revere them, and there's even a sense of infallibility and a mystique that only these specific men could have achieved independence and devised the framework of the country.

Me? I'm fine with it. It's a bit like how Germany is now after WWII. Although it isn't talked about much but as I understand Germany is a great country in the European community with no bad feelings at all. I hope it is the same all over UK with America; and usually it is.

Apart from the traditional American arrogance and some other bad bits, it's still a great country; a fantastic role model for when the time when even speaking about revolution in other colonies in the Americas was a no-no, and now with it's great culture that is all over the world.

As for George Washington. I do like studying American history. He is one of my most favorite historical characters; including John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. When Washington lead the American armies during the revolutionary war, he had a job to do. But it was a long time ago everyone has forgotten, forgiven and moved on.

I hope the attitude is the same all over Britain, and I think it is.

" the traditional American arrogance "

Whaaa ?

I thought British cornered the market on arrogance. but I guess people see things differently across the pond.
I would say Americans are indifferent, they simply don't care ... but that's not arrogance, is it ?

The arrogance I am referring to is; a famously portrayed in Fawtly Towers when the an American comes to stay and asks for a Waldorf salad.

But the modern American to the British; is a loud mouthed, Texas-speaking, over-weight and rude person. And to the British to an American we are all tea-drinking, pictures of the Queen on our mantle pieces, tea cosies everywhere and look like a cast member from Oliver Twist.

Totally untrue.

Who's overweight?!? o_O

We are arrogant, no doubt about it. Not that I am proud of it. The face of America to the rest of the world is arrogance. It's just that the Brits have got used to it ("it's just those Yanks being Yanks"). Hopefully Obama will be able to turn that around (sorry, John, you don't have a chance in hell of winning this one...)

(sorry, John, you don't have a chance in hell of winning this one...)

Hmm... so far I'm not sure that I've taken a side in any debate. Could you be mistaking warmi's comment as one by me?

On the issue of arrogance relative other countries, I have no idea where the average U.S. citizen falls. And actually I've only met Europeans (in person) in passing and so I don't what to expect on that end either.

I think I'm a pretty humble person, but that may only be a matter of circumstance. I assume that if I were a supermodel and a millionaire that I might be arrogant.

johnhpus wrote:

(sorry, John, you don't have a chance in hell of winning this one...)

Hmm... so far I'm not sure that I've taken a side in any debate. Could you be mistaking warmi's comment as one by me?

Indeed I think he was talking about this John

Kencho wrote:Indeed I think he was talking about this John

Unless Kencho knew, johnhpus is John McCain himself.

betajaen wrote:But the modern American to the British; is a loud mouthed, Texas-speaking, over-weight and rude person.

Hey, I take pride in my dialect.

But really, is there even a need for this discussion? With modern levels of immigration/emigration, mass communication (woo Internets), and the subsequent diffusion of cultures, I'm willing to propose that, in social terms at least, the archaic definition of a "country" as a distinct entity is beginning to fade. Heck, I regularly watch Japanese, Korean, and British shows and I identify with most of them socially, culturally, and intellectually. (Case in point: Doctor Who) Without the obvious indications of language, appearance, and location, I probably wouldn't be able to differentiate any of them from an American show.

It's funny, the thread was about arrogance, and I assumed that I was the 'John' in question. Maybe there's something to that generalization.

I personally think that much europeans, including me, think of america being, at least in politics, very arrogant. But i also think that the Bushs are to blame for that. Maybe the next president can make things better...

johnhpus wrote:... and I don't mean the movie, which I hope we can all agree is terrible.

I did like the ending explosion effects though. I was a little kid around 3 when it was released. Any kind of action always excited me.

For all I care we should celebrate the 8th May 1945. Regardless of how many german soldiers where killed in the process. Sometimes losing a war is better then winning it. Of course I wish we'd have lost quicker and less painfull but then who knows.. maybe we'd have tried again by now. I'm sure I'd make a damn fine Nazi if I had to.

(sorry - no offense )

Any thread that brings up the USA and Europe needs moar pictars:

Of course that picture does ignore the fact that the UK is part of Europe, and most British women are well.....

Ha .. I knew I was right ... so much for a loud mouthed, Texas-speaking, over-weight and rude person.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2138252.stm

I'm in a Brit in the USA and have no problem with most Americans whatsoever when the 4th of July comes around.

The only problem I have over here is with the Occasional American of sometimes questionable Irish descent. Sometimes I get the odd snide remark from someone who's great grandfather emigrated to the USA and want's to have a go because I personally caused their family grief. More often than not those same people have never been to Ireland or mainland UK and haven't got a clue.

Only meet these people once or twice a year, and the two genuine English and Irish pubs that are popular with us expats have no problems whatsoever .

On the question on women, I don't believe I have ever seen so many gorgeous women in in one place my entire life till I moved here. People that actually leave the house seem to really look after themeslves and put a lot of effort into keeping fit and healthy.

Makes walking my two pugs a lot of fun

It does seem a bit odd (as someone from neither country) that one country continues to celebrate kicking the crap out of another country, even though it's hundreds of years later and they are now allies.

Although I do find it funny that the american national anthem uses the music from a british drinking song.

Speaking of which, I was curious so I just checked out the lyrics to the anthem (heard bits of it many times, never really cared). It's interesting to look at what a country uses to represent itself and inspire it's citizens.
American anthem:

O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming.
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming.
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

(No insult intended, this is my personal interpretation of the lyrics)
Only 5 lines in and there's already rockets and bombs going off. Not exactly a happy start.
Stanza 1 - "our flag looks great while england is trying to kill us".
Stanza 2 - "yay, the flag didn't get blown up".
Stanza 3 - "we slaughtered them all, blood everywhere".
Stanza 4 - "god saved us and wants us to conquer anyone who we think deserves it".

Ok, so the whole thing is basically about looking at a flag during a war.


English anthem:

God save our gracious Queen,1
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save the Queen.

O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all.

Thy choicest gifts in store,
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign:
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice
God save the Queen.*

Hmm, a bit more religious than stanza 4 of the star spangled banner.
Stanza 1 - "we like the queen"
Stanza 2 - "we need god to defeat the queen's enemies"
Stanza 3 - "we really like the queen"

(It almost sounds like stanza 2 of God Save The Queen was written during stanza 3 of The Star Spangled Banner, what with all the blood washing away english footsteps, and hirelings and slaves being killed.)


Australian anthem:

Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history’s page, let every stage
Advance Australia Fair.

In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.

Beneath our radiant Southern Cross
We’ll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who’ve come across the seas
We’ve boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.

In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.

(I'll label stanzas to include the "In joyful..." bit in the previous one)
Stanza 1 - "the land we live in is awesome and beautiful"
Stanza 2 - "we want to share australia with everyone, come on over!"


So overall, america sings about a symbol of victory in war, england sings about religion and royalty, and australia sings about the landscape and tourism.

If it wasn't 2:51am I'd do a few more countries. I wonder which is more common, anthems which mention war or anthems which are peaceful. Also religious versus secular ratio.

Ok, one more, Canada:

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,
Great prairies spread and Lordly rivers flow!
How dear to us thy broad domain,
From East to Western sea!
The land of hope for all who toil,
The true North strong and free!
God keep our land, glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

O Canada! Beneath thy shining skies,
May Stalwart sons, and gentle maidens rise.
To keep thee steadfast thro' the years,
From East to Western sea.
Our own beloved native land,
Our true North strong and free!
God keep our land, glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

Ruler supreme, who hearest humble prayer,
Hold our Dominion, in thy loving care.
Help us to find, O God, in thee,
A lasting rich reward.
As waiting for the better day,
We ever stand on guard.
God keep our land, glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

Stanza 1 - "we love canada and will protect it"
Stanza 2 - "we still love canada and will protect it. It got trees and rivers"
Stanza 3 - "our children are going to love and protect canada too"
Stanza 4 - "we love canada and want god to protect it"

Kojack wrote: Ok, so the whole thing is basically about looking at a flag during a war.

More or less -- it was Francis Scott Key looking at a flag during a battle in the War of 1812 (aka the second British ass-kicking at the hand of the Yanks.

Here's the political maneuvering that made it the official anthem (but that possibility was not why Key wrote it. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

that one country continues to celebrate kicking the crap out of another country

Hehehe .... kicking the crap out of another country ?

You surely must be talking about the 20th century because there is no way in hell one could classify the American war of independence as kicking the crap out of anything.

I have no issues with Independence Day and I don't think any other Brit does either. Hell, we got kicked out of enough colonies that if we were sensitive about it, we'd have something to gripe about every month! Water under the bridge, different world, we're all friends now, etc.

I find America as an entity, that is to say headed up by Bush and fired at me via media channels etc, pretty damn annoying. Loud, full of itself and pretty ignorant.

I find the majority of American people that I've met completely unlike that. Maybe it's because I've only visited the coasts, but the people I've met there have been among the nicest, friendliest people I've met anywhere, well educated and a pleasure to be around. I'm glad to count them among my friends.

It's a rather strange dichotomy.