Ogre Forums

I ran into an interesting article today: http://mattgemmell.com/2008/12/08/what-have-you-tried

And while is has some good points, specifically that people should put in effort to finding out the answer before asking for help, certain people don't help others because they feel the person pursuing help has not done their due investigation and work. (in this case, they should simply not respond. Why they do respond is a mystery to me) As I read through all of the comments, most of them simply praising the author for his stance on the subject, there were a few posts that countered this. First of all, the author fails to even acknowledge the whole "lead by example" method of teaching. Many people including myself do investigations, trial and error, AND want to find other examples of somewhat aligned solutions. I often come to these forums trying to find or request reference code.

Here are some of the other counter points made by a few people, willing to post against the majority:

Of course they’re going to ask for the answer because why would you reinvent the wheel if it’s already been done?
If you have some simple inane question posed to a just-grad you really think they’re going to research how to embed pix? NO they’re going to work smart not hard. If it hasn’t been done or if they can’t find an answer quickly online they’ll probably try to figure it out eventually, but look at it this way.
When you boss asks you to complete a task do you complete it quickly or start from the beginning even though someone already has an idea of how it should be done?
If you said the latter you should probably be fired for wasting the company’s fucking time.
If i had an emp. who tried to do everything from scratch and didn’t bother to find a quick pre=fab answer online they would be canned.

"What a retard. Anyone with a slight hint of intelligence knows that the very best software engineers are adept at integrating the work of others…a programmer who’s first instinct is to find the best wheel for the job already invented by someone else rather than create their own sub-standard solution are always the most successful."

There are those of us who learn better by example. I can learn much more much faster by dissecting a good code example than I can by spending the same time researching an issue.

That said, I still conform to some of the rules Matt laid out. I spend some amount of time looking into the issue before I would flat out ask for the answer. I have enough confidence in my ability to find a solution to a problem that if I don’t find it in a reasonable amount of time, then I figure it’s an obscure or difficult thing to do.

But from the perspective of the one answering the question, they have no idea what process has brought the questioner to this point. Thus the title of the article, “What have you tried?”

While I generally agree with the topic, people should put in a good effort to figure out a problem before looking for help, I think some people use this concept as a scape goat. "You aren't putting in enough effort, so I'll just toss out some random statements and links and not help you".

I see three comments on an article.

The first is getting it all wrong. The article didn't say that one shouldn't answer a good question, or that you shouldn't share your knowledge.
If a company doesn't want a developer to waste their fucking time, maybe they should educate their employees a bit?
Like how to ask a question? That article didn't mean that you should sod off and reinvent your own fucking wheels.
Man, he really got it all wrong.

The second one is a retard. I can't believe you quoted it.

The third one is probably right, but haven't really understood what the article was about.
The world is full of so-called developers blindly copying/using code.
Of course, the article is exaggerating to make the point come across.


Whenever I see a common question, I try not to answer the question directly.
I refer to the Wiki, an existing topic, the manual, etc.
I am not saying we shouldn't try to answer questions, but I believe in helping people by showing them how to help themselves.
If I can.

My $0.02: I always tend to answer people directly and promptly. If I was in their situation asking a simple question, I would sure love for someone to swoop it and just give me a pointer or two instead of go "read this article about how bad your post is." Yes, the article does have some points, but I don't really agree with it, especially considering xavier's reply in your other thread, which did indeed show what you've done already. I think he was just eager to post an elitist reply to show off his new signature.

How much more direct and prompt do you need it to be?
See the original topic for enlightenment.
I am sure you'll see what you overlooked.
Your point is invalid.

Well, here my two cents (and I guess not only my opinion):

Cool down! Please, everyone stay polite and take it professionally. I've seen so many great boards dying because some persons sometime took one comment to personally or misinterpreted it. I really don't want the same to happen here! Different opinions are good and important, but don't start accusing and offending other persons here for what reasons ever (use of Singletons, noob tutorials for shader usage, answering style, ...).

Really, my honest wish: We are all adults here, so let's behave like some.

PS: I don't want to offend anyone with this post either, just meant as a warning...

Don't worry, Spacegaier.

OK. If you don't know what an answer means, just ask.
Don' make the silly mistake of assuming you know what it meant.
If something is puzzling you, ask.



This is a good list of things to have in mind when answering questions - I try to follow the principles:

• Enforce autonomy. No matter how beneficent you're feeling, never directly answer a common question. This is the lazy way out, and you only enable the Help Vampires instead of truly helping them. Let the URL to your help resources be your only answer, but tell the vamp you are happy to help if he explores those avenues of self-help and still cannot find an answer.
• Foster thinking. Even if it's not a question you see go bye fifty times a day... don't answer it with a direct fix (unless the person is a known non-vamp, or it's a real puzzler). Answer with questions to spur (and guide) thought. If the Help Vampire resists thinking or complains, give them the URL for the Resources page and withhold further assistance.
• Reward self-help and helping others. Thank people who ask intelligent questions and do research first, and people who make an effort to help others. Tell them they're a credit to the community. Be especially generous with praise and emoticons for those who are actively reforming their ways. Help is a trickle-down economy.
• Be friendly. People and Help Vampires are much more likely to become useful members of the community if they're met with kindness and encouragement rather than condescension and spite. They may seem like nothing but one more in a long strain of know-nothings, but you stand out very distinctly to them.

Remember that we all make mistakes, not all answers are perfect.
But that's not a reason to get all wound up.

Well that said I do usually post links to the direct topic in question in the API docs or possibly the manual. And besides, it's not like we're a school here. We're a (mostly) support forum.

nullsquared wrote:My $0.02: I always tend to answer people directly and promptly. If I was in their situation asking a simple question, I would sure love for someone to swoop it and just give me a pointer or two instead of go "read this article about how bad your post is." Yes, the article does have some points, but I don't really agree with it, especially considering xavier's reply in your other thread, which did indeed show what you've done already. I think he was just eager to post an elitist reply to show off his new signature.

Wow. How wrong we can get it. I walk away for a couple of hours and a teapot has grown a tempest.

My reply in said thread says all that needs to be said. It had nothing to do with any "new signature", although it probably seemed that way due to proximity.

nullsquared wrote:Well that said I do usually post links to the direct topic in question in the API docs or possibly the manual.

See above. If there were a relevant link in the API or manual to "it crashes", rest assured I would have done so.

Hehe, having spent a lot of time on politics and philosophy boards over the past 5 years, it's really funny to see people thinking the responses in this debate are getting heated.

mkultra333 wrote:Hehe, having spent a lot of time on politics and philosophy boards over the past 5 years, it's really funny to see people thinking the responses in this debate are getting heated.

Lol I've seen (and participated in some) of the comments threads for the political postings at punditkitchen.com -- I know what you mean.

Yes, we are spoiled.