Ogre Forums

I really want to start playing with DirectX10, so I need to upgrade. I have heard nothing but good things about Windows 7, and nothing but BAD things about Vista, so youd think the choice would be simple.. but a few things concern me..

1.) Can I even get it anymore? I checked the microsoft site and they say they arent letting people download anymore...

2.) When the final version is released, I wont have to reinstall will I? They will let me just buy a retail key, and upgrade without having to reinstall all my stuff... right?

3.) And my biggest concern.. Drivers and Software... am I going to have trouble finding compatible drivers for video cards, ect... and will I have similar trouble installing games ect? Should any application designed for vista 'just work' with Windows 7?

Thanks for any input

1.) I would wait until it's officially released in October, there's no more beta testing AFAIK. There are sources where you can still download it, but nothing official.

2.) You can upgrade, since you live in the US. In Europe you have to do a complete reinstall which sucks for us.

3.) It should just work; vista -> windows 7 is not like XP -> vista, there are probably exceptions, but you should download the latest drivers anyway (and like I say, if you wait until it's officially released in October, there will be more support for it)

Ok so assuming I can get my hands on a a beta copy, I will NOT have to reinstall all my stuff come October, and when I go to install drivers/apps ect, just grab the latest VISTA version, and it should work?

I see what you mean, I don't think you can migrate from a beta version to the official version. What I meant was wait until October before you start to use Windows 7 seriously.

Bahhh! But I have this wad of cash burning a hole in my pocket... I am about to build a new computer, and I really dont want to put vista on it, only to have to upgrade to windows 7 a month later..

Maybe the modern vista->windows 7 upgrade process is smooth enough that I wont have to reinstall all my crap, but I doubt that. In the past I have only had luck doing a fresh format when swapping operating systems..

Sigh what to do what to do....

Hide the money under a mattress and forget about it till October 22nd.

you can also consider to just forget windows

syd wrote:you can also consider to just forget windows

I have the RTM version os windows 7, the build 7600 who is the last, and i didn´t need a serial, its free for 30 days
Send me a pm if you want

You can get Enterprise 90 days Trial here:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/eval ... ID=tnflash
you need MSN account and you have to fill the personal info form (although they say you can click Cancel and proceed, actually clicking Cancel does not allow to download W7).
Downloading goes through Java-based AKAMAI downloader so it is pretty fast.

I got my full Win 7 RTM 7600 Professional form MSDNAA and it is pretty good. I compared features of various Windows 7 editions and it seems having Enterprise or Ultimate would be an overkill even for IT developer.
BTW, MSDNAA offers even MUI packages for Win 7. But it is weird because I need at least Enterprise to be able to install MUI. Which is weird again - why a simple home user cannot have Windows 7 English transformed into his native language? Or maybe Microsoft is going to offer Win 7 in all those languages which are in their MUI packages?

Have not tested everything yet (XP is still my main OS) but I see that AMD and Creative already have compatible drivers. I am on my Pentium 4 3.2GHz but Win 7 runs pretty fast. So I guess I'll jump over all those Core Duos and wait for Core i7 to become cheaper. After all DDR3 has really dropped the price down (now it is almost the same as DDR2) so it is time for mobos and CPUs. I hope. Windows 7 on Core i7 - sounds nice

I'm running Win 7 RTM now (msdnaa as well) as my primary OS. The task bar still has some stupidities, but I've at least found out how to get a double row quicklaunch bar back.
Game wise is the main annoyance as far. Arma 2 is completely unplayable in 7 (looks horrible and runs jerky and slow) but runs great in Vista 64. There's currently no 64 bit virtual joystick software like ppjoy, so you can't use programs like glovepie to remap devices to a fake joystick, and there's no 64 bit version of the xbcd drivers so you can't configure the triggers of an xbox360 controller to stop sucking in old games (like Psychonauts). The reason is that things like 64 bit drivers require signing by microsoft, and that costs money which open source developers like the ppjoy and xbcd authors are refusing to pay. 32 bit drivers don't have that. If you disable the check for signed 64 bit drivers, then you lose the ability to play bluray videos at high quality (since your fake joystick driver might really be trying to pirate movies!).

Otherwise so far it's vista with a more annoying control panel and task bar.

I haven't done much with it so far besides visual studio 2008, firefox, thunderbird and some games.

That part with bluray and signed drivers is a stopper for me. I was thinking about getting win7 after the official launch but I dislike if anything is being forced on me. Vista started with this kind of artificial limitations and apparently win7 won't be any better.

Fyi - I found a way to get rid of that money that was burning a hole in my pocket. I bought a mac mini! Playing around with Ogre on iPhone should keep me busy until windows 7 comes out.

My MAC friends tell me putting windows 7 on a MAC is doable:
http://www.simplehelp.net/2009/01/15/us ... lkthrough/

-o0hamish0o

volca, are you saying on windows 7 we can't install unsigned drivers, like graphics drivers from http://guru3d.com/ ? I think I installed some custom graphics drivers from this site, and my laptop is on Windows 7..

Also, can you elaborate about bluray? Whats being enforced here?

Also, I think it should be noted that Kojack is in the minority of people who dislike the new task bar in WIndows 7. The task bar is right there on the desktop, so if you have to use it and see it all the time and you don't really like it, you wouldn't have as great an experience.

KungFooMasta, what they are saying is, of course you can install whatever driver you like, signed or not, but, if you use unsigned drivers, they fail Windows DRM checks so that you cant use DRM dependent features like playing Blue-Ray discs...

Ah, I see. That does sound bad. However DRM is more of a content issue right? Microsoft partners with content providers who want a form of protection so that people are restricted on things like number of times they can view content. Maybe this is a security measure added by Microsoft to comfort content providers, forcing users to used signed drivers to view protected content? Or Microsoft just added this in for some other reason?

Windows (from Vista onwards) uses PMP (Protected Media Path) to meet the requirements of Bluray and HDDVD copy protection. On 64 bit systems, an unsigned 64 bit driver potentially has access to the internals of the protected environment used to perform encryption of video data to send to the gfx card (yes, they actually encrypt video before the gfx card gets it, in case you have a pci-express sniffer installed to rip a movie). When the checks for driver signing are disabled, the protected environment is considered compromised and will drop the quality of video to make it not worthwhile copying (so instead of 1080p you end up with something like 270p). This also happens if your gfx card or monitor don't support copy protection. If you open the nvidia control panel in windows 7 and select "View HDCP Status" it will tell you if you have a secure system.
32bit systems have no way of blocking unsigned drivers, so they just assume the system is always compromised.

As long as you aren't using a bluray drive on your computer or you aren't downloading hd videos or high quality audio files with copy protection, allowing unsigned drivers onto a 64 bit system should have little or no effect on you.

Also, I think it should be noted that Kojack is in the minority of people who dislike the new task bar in WIndows 7

It should also be noted that I'm in the minority of people who are right.

I tried it for a bit, and I just don't like the way that task bar worked. I've converted it to 90% windows classic now, but it still does the idiotic grouping of executables (haven't found a way to turn that off, maybe there's a registry entry). Basically, you can rearrange any programs on the taskbar by just dragging them around (yay!) but all entries using the same executable must be side by side (wtf?). If you have 4 firefox windows open, you can't put winamp in the middle of them on the task bar, it will clamp to the left or right of them all. Why add such an artificial restriction to a potential task bar improvement? (I've wanted dragging of taskbar entries for ages)

Maybe this is a security measure added by Microsoft to comfort content providers, forcing users to used signed drivers to view protected content?

Pretty much. Hollywood is pushing all this crap onto us, MS, Nvidia, ATI, etc has to support it if they want to be able to play content. In 2010 all new stand alone bluray players will start limiting the quality of output to analog cables (composite, component, svideo, etc) to interlace standard def modes (576i max). In 2013 support for analog cables will be removed completely from all bluray players. Everything will be using encrypted digital cabling.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/06/08/aa ... og-in-2013
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/06/ho ... drives-us-
Even if you have an old player made before 2010, it still supports the "Image Constraint Token" flag which lets a disc tell the player to drop quality on certain connections. So all discs made after 2010 will have that flag to control older players.

I'm amazed by the quantity of effort content providers are pushing through. It leads to some crazy things like PS2 crippling DVD playback on component cables for example (makes video green after some time. At the same time they still advertise that the unit is a DVD player, and don't tell anybody about this). Well, Sony sure does have some history in this area (the infamous rootkits for example). History shows that if someone wants to copy the content illegaly, then he/she will. Normal people which pay for the content are the ones getting battered.

After I got used to GNU/Linux, these things (content protection, etc.) seem so wrong and artificial. Publishers, give me my favourite games on linux and I won't have the need to work with windows at all.
The cited crippling functionality of vista/Win7 seems like a warning for me - it could mean there are other systems hidden in the windows code nobody quite knows about.

All that DRM garbage is infuriating, especially given the systems have already been cracked. And especially given that, a decade after people started ripping movies from DVD to their computers, Hollywood makes as much or more money than ever.

And in the end, if you download the whole movie from bittorrent you are free to use it as you want

I'm not pro-piracy, but anything that actually spoils the experience of legit payers, it's just stupid... just like online activations, mp3 DRM, etc.
Piracy should be fighted with other means, providing quality and better user experience, not by limiting them.

volca wrote:That part with bluray and signed drivers is a stopper for me. I was thinking about getting win7 after the official launch but I dislike if anything is being forced on me. Vista started with this kind of artificial limitations and apparently win7 won't be any better.

Artificial ? What's so artificial about it ?

Your have no inherent right to play a movie on your computer anymore than you have a right to have your computer act as a toaster.
A computer is a combination of hardware/software which provides services as defined by the manufacturer - if you don't like it, don't buy it.

This is the reason I said it stops me from buying such product, sheesh
By "Artificial" I mean - it didn't come up by itself, instead it was intentionally put in by the manufacturer. The bluray playback crippling is not the first thing happening you know - trusted computing is kind of scary too, for example.

volca wrote:This is the reason I said it stops me from buying such product, sheesh
By "Artificial" I mean - it didn't come up by itself, instead it was intentionally put in by the manufacturer. The bluray playback crippling is not the first thing happening you know - trusted computing is kind of scary too, for example.

There is nothing artificial about it - it is part of product specifications.
Nobody "crippled" your computer ... it was designed that way.

warmi wrote:

volca wrote:This is the reason I said it stops me from buying such product, sheesh
By "Artificial" I mean - it didn't come up by itself, instead it was intentionally put in by the manufacturer. The bluray playback crippling is not the first thing happening you know - trusted computing is kind of scary too, for example.

There is nothing artificial about it - it is part of product specifications.
Nobody "crippled" your computer ... it was designed that way.

Crippled product or not, it is just subjective. Just as long as it is not that obvious and the advantages are lots more, mass users will not cry foul and that is what really matter.

I was actually trying to point out to Volca that the blame should not be on the Microsoft, its the content providers that want such protection, and for Microsoft its the way business works. A company will work together with other companies, and these companies may have certain requirements that must be met. Hating on windows because other companies require more security is misplacing the blame.