Ogre Forums

Take look at this link:

http://blog.expensify.com/2011/03/25/ce ... ogrammers/

Hope you like it.

Amer

I like it. Actually I like the flaming part the most.

Now let me clarify — .NET is a dandy language. It’s modern, it’s fancy, it’s got all the bells and whistles.

I don't really like .net, but I at least know what it is, unlike this guy.

Compared to the mess that is Java and CLASSPATH, I love .Net.

.Net is not a language..
I like C#, but only because I like(d) Delphi.

I don't know much about .net and c# except that you should call C++ "Native" code and not "Unmanaged" code. I always enjoy someone making a strong statement that irritates some subset of programmers and starts a flame war though.

Reading that link and some associated ones, (http://mattswanson.org/corporate-stereo ... up-career/, http://blog.expensify.com/2011/03/31/ce ... -workload/) it makes me realize I won't ever fit in a startup.

50 hours a week to make someone else a millionaire? Screw that. I work one hour then desperately need some TF2 to unwind, and maybe a few hours nap. And they don't like semi-autistics? If so, I have been seriously misled as to the nature of this industry and fear for my future.

Speaking of .Net and managed code, I was wondering: Ogre is seriously native code, right? And XBox is seriously .Net. Does that mean that an XBox version of Ogre will never exist? I may be wrong on these assumptions, I'm just asking.

What? XBox is not on .Net, it's the XNA framework that is. Any console is just hardware + firmware. Most of the games on XBox and other consoles are C++ (plus scripting language). There is no "native C++", there is only C++ and the Microsoft-invented-not-directly-compatible "managed c++".

Klaim wrote:What? XBox is not on .Net, it's the XNA framework that is. Any console is just hardware + firmware. Most of the games on XBox and other consoles are C++ (plus scripting language). There is no "native C++", there is only C++ and the Microsoft-invented-not-directly-compatible "managed c++".

I don't recall saying "native C++", I said C++ should be referred to as "native" rather than "unmanaged." This is as opposed to a managed language like C#. I'm not claiming expertise in this area either, simply that that's what I had been told. A quick google doesn't seem to contradict this.

I thought all Xbox stuff was managed. If that's not the case, does that mean Ogre can be adapted easily to XBox? (Which is the question I originally asked.)

mkultra333 wrote: I thought all Xbox stuff was managed. If that's not the case, does that mean Ogre can be adapted easily to XBox? (Which is the question I originally asked.)

If you don't mind being unable to use at their fullest the 6 hardware threads, the GPU/CPU shared mem and the vec ISA, and you can live with an engine that makes no assumptions on the hardware even when it's set in stone, it would surely run.
But probabily you would be better off with something other if performances matter, rather than adapting ogre for the task.

_tommo_ wrote: If you don't mind being unable to use at their fullest the 6 hardware threads, the GPU/CPU shared mem and the vec ISA

Why bother? You get more CPU power/threads, the same GPU/CPU shared mem and a vector ISA twice as wide, with the Intel SandyBridge chip. And someday there might even be motherboards for it.

Thanks for the link boyamer, I thought it was a good article. Don't get me wrong, I use .NET some (even worked in the past as a c# web dev, and play with NeoAxis), but it's only one tool in the box for me. Any skilled developer should have exposure to an array of technology and languages and understand what's happening under the hood (as .NET often abstracts you from that).

xavier wrote: Why bother? You get more CPU power/threads, the same GPU/CPU shared mem and a vector ISA twice as wide, with the Intel SandyBridge chip. And someday there might even be motherboards for it.

I didn't really get your point
You're saying that you can release a console game without using the console's hardware at its fullest?
Sure you can, but that would be much worse than competition, and consoles are a really competitive place... for example Torchlight for XBLA runs "xbox Ogre" for sure, but it runs as the pc the xbox is - an old pc. Meaning that it takes ages to load and stutters quite often, on par with a current netbook.
Sure taking advantage of the fixed hardware would be better.

If you don't mind being unable to use at their fullest the 6 hardware threads, the GPU/CPU shared mem and the vec ISA, and you can live with an engine that makes no assumptions on the hardware even when it's set in stone, it would surely run.

Is it too against Ogre's grain to adapt to this hardware? So you'd be better starting from scratch?

I'm thinking of all the good stuff ogre does, all the resource management, animation, material management, all the 3D math. Recoding all that from scratch would be lousy. Maybe XNA does all that stuff, I've never looked at it. Is XNA to some extent "Ogre for the XBox?"

_tommo_ wrote:

xavier wrote: Why bother? You get more CPU power/threads, the same GPU/CPU shared mem and a vector ISA twice as wide, with the Intel SandyBridge chip. And someday there might even be motherboards for it.

I didn't really get your point
You're saying that you can release a console game without using the console's hardware at its fullest?

I'm saying you don't need a console anymore to have that level of programmability.

mkultra333 wrote:Is it too against Ogre's grain to adapt to this hardware? So you'd be better starting from scratch?

Yeah, I was meaning that - actually starting from scratch is not a necessity, you could also write an "XboxRenderSystem", a xbox threaded scene manager, rewrite the math classes to use the vec ISA, put threading everywhere and whatever else, while carefully avoiding Fixed Function - but it's up to you to decide if this is better than writing someting on your own losing the parts that are just fine.

@xavier: actually i'm just saying that xbox hardware is set in stone, i know that PCs are just better. The matter is, no user will complain if you use a single thread + workers without the vector ISA on PC, because the market is too diverse.
While on console everyone will compare you against games that already do, if you don't.

I personally using .net every single day and whole editor stuff of my engine (http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57833) its top based on it.
for me its quite fast and whole developing stuff looks solid and fast, of course i know very well C/C++, Java, Lua,Python and the rest and if i need to access to "low" level i can do it easily by calling C/C++ functions from .NET.