Kinect For Windows Released, MS Shoots Self In Foot

[Kojack]

Yesterday Microsoft released the Kinect For Windows sdk (it's been in beta until now) and hardware.
Yay.

However, they've decided to ruin it.
The new 1.0 sdk (which has a bunch of improvements) only works with the Kinect For Windows hardware. Not the XBox 360 Kinect. If you want to use a 360 kinect, you need to stick with the beta sdk.
The Kinect For Windows costs $240us, compared to the current XBox 360 Kinect price of around is $140us. How do they differ? The hardware is the same. The sensors and lenses are the same. The windows version has a new "near mode" which works at 40cm range, but it's just a firmware update, not hardware. Microsoft say the reason for the massive price rise is because they won't be getting money back on games like on consoles, so they need to charge more.

So those of us (like me) who bought a Kinect just for pc and don't own a 360, now must buy another kinect at almost double the price just to use the latest sdk.

If I need to spend more money, I'd rather dump MS and get an Asus Wavi Xtion Pro instead (the asus version of kinect).
(If asus ever release the xtion pro in australia. Europe and America have it already)

[duststorm]

Or those of us that have bought a kinect and one extra game, but have since then abandoned it for gaming because the software they release for it is just not that great.
There are games made for it with the hacked SDK that are better than what is available on the 360.

They will probably release all those fancy and nice updates to their official SDK and apps so that they only work with the kinect for windows version. Which could give people incentive to buy the more expensive hardware.
At least unless those people want to get their hands dirty and hack their kinect hardware (which will certainly happen). Anyone up for getting that firmware update on the 360 kinect?

It's a pity to see over and over again that microsoft still hasn't lost its tricks and remains in the same thinking patterns. Even though more open ways of making profit have been proven succesful.
They released their official SDK thanks to opensource hacking efforts. They got their ideas for some of their kinect related research and applications they are releasing from the opensource community.
Instead of embracing this collaborative effort, and being thankful for the interest the academic and hacker community has taken in this device. No, they release their proprietary windows-only toolkit, take whatever they can steal from research and prototypes already worked out by the community, and make their own version of it that they close down again firmly.

Wonder if they will attempt going after the openni implementations again. I'm quite certain the windows kinect will have some crypto protections built in so it's harder to use by third parties.

As a side note, I think I will be wary about connecting my kinect to my Xbox 360 again from now on, at least with the internet connected. I already see it happen that microsoft pushes a kinect firmware update through their xbox live service, thereby breaking its compatibility with existing openni drivers. It's really a thing to expect from them.

[Kojack]

I'm quite certain the windows kinect will have some crypto protections built in so it's harder to use by third parties.

That's what NaturalPoint did to stop third party apis connecting to the TrackIR. They encrypted the camera data. Plus they made it that you had to give a special haiku as a string to the driver to initialise the camera, so they could use copyright claims (on the haiku) to stop projects like FreeTrack using it.
But I don't understand why. The sdk is free (but highly selective as to who gets it). The drivers are free. What harm is there is letting other software access the TrackIR camera? They have nothing to lose (the software side is free anyway) and lots to gain (more people wanting to buy the camera and more games supporting it). Instead they fight to prevent people using their hardware.

Microsoft is going a similar way, but still has far better business ethics (yes, I'm really saying MS is a more ethical company). If the new Kinect sdk requires sending poetry to enable the kinect, we're in trouble.

Oddly enough, both TrackIR and Kinect use infrared cameras. Maybe long term exposure to ir light (trackir has an ir spotlight that shines in your face, kinect has an ir laser that shines in your face) causes company directors to go mental.

[duststorm]

they made it that you had to give a special haiku as a string to the driver to initialise the camera, so they could use copyright claims (on the haiku) to stop projects like FreeTrack using it.

Now that is original! Even though I really oppose to such measures.

Using poetry as a legal weapon.. I believe Rimbaud (among many others) would be turning in their graves.

[iblues1976]

I checked amazon for asus xtion and I can't find it. nor I can't find it in asus.com

About the kinect, it says that it can be used for both
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums ... dbc44bfc1f just some licensing differences.

Also, there are probably ways to get around this and great group to find out about this is here:
http://groups.google.com/group/openkinect

[Zonder]

The SDK will probably get hacked or the main driver unless the have changed the communication protocol between the device and the machine so they arn't compatible with each other (Thats what I would have done)

[Klaim]

Is it really the same hardware? I heard they are planning to release a highly more performant kinect hardware with the next console...

[Kojack]

Ok, from iblues1976's link, the new sdk does work with the 360 kinect. But you can't give out what you make with it (commercial or non commerical), the non sdk drivers will return a device not found error if the windows kinect isn't plugged in.

Apparently the camera and mic data is better in the windows kinect, due to firmware.
So far I haven't been able to find any details of hardware differences apart from a shorter usb cable on the windows one, every improvement is software or firmware based.

There's going to be an educational version for $149 later in the year. I guess that's not too bad for me, but it's not going to help get a viable market for windows kinect games going.

The windows kinect also isn't compatible with a 360. If you have a 360 and pc and want to use a kinect on both, you need to buy one of each kinect type.

I checked amazon for asus xtion and I can't find it. nor I can't find it in asus.com

http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Motion_Sensor/Xtion_PRO

The Wavi Xtion uses the OpenNI libs, same as the non microsoft kinect stuff. I guess that means it will need that annoying starting pose.
While I don't like how MS are handling this, their sdk is really good at quickly grabbing skeletons as soon as they are in front of the camera, no pose needed. No bone orientation though, just joint positions.

[al2950]

IMHO I dont think MS are intending the kinect for windows to be used as a gaming device, with the end user being me or you. Doing that would draw attention away from the xbox. The kinect is quite a USP for the xbox in my opinion although there have not being any games which have amazed me yet!

I think Kinect for windows is aiming for other markets, like simuation, training, etc... where that price tag becomes quite resaonble. Anyway there are many competitors to the Kinect for windows, like asus one you mentioned or softkinect's one;
http://www.softkinetic.com/

My two cents

[PhilipLB]

OpenNI doesn't need the calibration pose anymore.

[Zonder]

The kinect is quite a USP for the xbox in my opinion although there have not being any games which have amazed me yet!

I would never use one. Wii mote is ok though

[Kojack]

A wireless Hydra with better range would be even better than a Wiimote.
(Portal 2 with a Razer Hydra is quite a unique experience)


That SoftKinetic looks pretty cool. It uses a 160 x 120 x 60fps time of flight depth camera. The Kinect (and Xtion) have a higher resolution depth output, but actually detect depth at a pretty low res, since they look for patterns of IR dots. I would expect the SoftKinetic's sensor to be effectively higher res and less noisy, but that's just a guess.

$499us is a bit much though, and it uses a different api.