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Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO)

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:41 pm
by al2950
I thought I would share some of my thoughts of why Ogre is more important now than it has ever been. If you agree or disagree I would be interested in hearing your thoughts!

Back in 2005, I think, when Sinbad dreamt up Ogre it was extremely well received and gained traction quickly. It removed a large number of barriers for people trying to get into 3D development, especially for me :). It had everything needed that goes a long side a rendering engine, eg resource management, etc, and it had an easy to use rendering pipeline.

Everything was great, at least for fixed function pipeline graphics. As graphics got more complicated and moved away from FFP, Ogre did not really keep up. Many shaders and plugins were created and shared with the community to create pretty scenes but there was never any real attention given to the Ogre core regarding creating a shader pipeline. Maybe the emphasis was too much on flexibility, I dont know, but to some degree this is why RTSS was born, but it unfortunately never gained traction.

Then came Unity and effectively a free UE4 engine which kind of left Ogre dragging its heavy weight heels. Those engines give you great graphics out of the box, and everything else. However people still want to learn 3D programming and/or dont want to use AAA engines and it actually is not that difficult to create a rendering engine yourself as there is a lot of material around now.

We are now seeing a fairly major and exciting shift in GPU programming, which effectively means the 3D rendering API's are no longer actually that easy to use. (Disclaimer: I have not actually looked at any of them :oops:) They are more low level and will require a considerable amount of knowledge, which will increase the barriers of those wanting to get into 3D development. Queue Ogre 2.0 and the great work dark_sylinc has been doing with AZDO. Its now more important than ever that there is library that deals with these low level API's and gives a clear and easy to use API coupled with blistering performance. Furthermore there has been considerable amount of effort put into the shader pipeline, meaning now Ogre can be 'shiny' out of the box. In my view this should be a rendering engines first and foremost priority, as whats the point of a rendering engine that does not given anything more than FFP out of the box?!

Anyone got vastly different view!? I know many people have put a lot of hard work into Ogre over the years so hope no one takes offence to this post, I mean none by it, and remember this is all written with the superhuman power of hindsight!

PS. I am ridiculously excited about the first release of Ogre 2.0 :D

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
by Zonder
al2950 wrote: Back in 2005, I think, when Sinbad dreamt up Ogre it was extremely well received and gained traction quickly. It removed a large number of barriers for people trying to get into 3D development, especially for me :). It had everything needed that goes a long side a rendering engine, eg resource management, etc, and it had an easy to use rendering pipeline.
I think it was more like 2000/2001.

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:17 pm
by al2950
Zonder wrote:
al2950 wrote: Back in 2005, I think, when Sinbad dreamt up Ogre it was extremely well received and gained traction quickly. It removed a large number of barriers for people trying to get into 3D development, especially for me :). It had everything needed that goes a long side a rendering engine, eg resource management, etc, and it had an easy to use rendering pipeline.
I think it was more like 2000/2001.
Thats true but V1.0 was released in 2005. Its also when I started looking at it :)

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:55 pm
by frostbyte
We are now seeing a fairly major and exciting shift in GPU programming
was there ever a time that this was'nt true? :wink:
i think ogre team make very mature decisions, running after every new api/hype is madness...
in this crazy world of chasing tech novelties , "sit and wait" is probably the best approach...
ogre 2.0 is right on time... :D

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:39 am
by Kojack
frostbyte wrote:
We are now seeing a fairly major and exciting shift in GPU programming
was there ever a time that this was'nt true? :wink:
Yes, when we used to do 3d without a gpu. :)

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:11 am
by hydexon
Kojack wrote:
frostbyte wrote:
We are now seeing a fairly major and exciting shift in GPU programming
was there ever a time that this was'nt true? :wink:
Yes, when we used to do 3d without a gpu. :)
The software renderers was popular in those old times, almost replicate the hardware ones, barely, but with a performance cost..

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:14 am
by dark_sylinc
frostbyte wrote:
We are now seeing a fairly major and exciting shift in GPU programming
was there ever a time that this was'nt true? :wink:
i think ogre team make very mature decisions, running after every new api/hype is madness...
in this crazy world of chasing tech novelties , "sit and wait" is probably the best approach...
ogre 2.0 is right on time... :D
I think he means GPU based rendering.

Right now, DX11-level GPUs are capable of generating draw commands from within compute shaders. This means that it is theoretically possible to update all scene graph, perform culling, and submit draw calls.... from the GPU itself.
That is, the GPU feeds itself. Barely any intervention from the CPU.

Of course, the GPU also needs to render, so sometimes it may be wise to offload some of these computations to the CPU until you get a good balance. But it's highly varying. Some developers are also demanding OS and API makers to allow persistent threads (something the hardware is already capable of); that is, a compute shader that never dies and polls for incoming data from external sources (i.e. CPU, another shader)
OSes currently don't allow it (TDR will kick in in Windows); but that is the trend.

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:37 am
by N0vember
We are all excited that Ogre 2.0 is coming. I concur to this part of the message ! For the rest it is too low-level for me to give any insight.

However I've never seen any danger from engines like UE4, because these engines never leave you in control of your code like a good rendering library does.
They are basically little sandboxes. Beautiful, sparkly, shiny little sand prisons for your average game programmer.
Though I can agree that it's crucial for the future of open-source game development, that there is an efficient state-of-the-art and open-source 3D engine.

That's the cornerstone we will all build on :)

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:52 am
by hydexon
We should call this Thread to 'Ogre 2.0 Hype Thread'?

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:53 am
by frostbyte
dark_sylinc wrote:
DX11-level GPUs are capable of generating draw commands from within compute shaders. This means that it is theoretically possible to update all scene graph, perform culling, and submit draw calls.... from the GPU itself.
and thus the roadmap to ogre 3.0 was conceived :lol:

Re: Why I think Ogre is more important than ever (2.0 + AZDO

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:22 pm
by iblues1976
I can't wait to see the first stable release of Ogre 2.0
All the work that OGRE team developers and contributors are doing is an amazing task!