[Announcement] Forums updated/ Addon forums to go down

[dark_sylinc]

Uh oh, that information you posted is key. It would appear the forums are not reachable from IPv6 but they are from IPv4.

I've informed Pavel about the situation.

[devxkh]

lol, i thought too, the forum is down.
Per random i've installed opera.
I can only see the forum with opera and vpn.

[dermont]

Uh oh, that information you posted is key. It would appear the forums are not reachable from IPv6 but they are from IPv4.

I've informed Pavel about the situation.

Thanks I can now access the forums directly.

[paroj]

and the final step is complete: the http://wiki.ogre3d.org is updated and moved to the new server.

Unfortunately as the previous instance was heavily modified some of the page formatting broke. Furthermore the forums authentication is not working correctly right now - only existing users are able to log-in & edit pages.

However I would like to move away from the wiki anyway as it mostly just overlaps with other documentation, but provides an inferior experience:

• for tutorial/ sample code Doxygen is the way to go as it integrates with the API reference.
• for external projects, github offers source code browsing & issue tracking.
• the remaining things, should rather be on the frontpage where they are more discoverable.

so instead of putting effort into further updating the wiki, I would rather like to migrate the content to one of the three above options.

[hyyou]

...
However I would like to move away from the wiki anyway as it mostly just overlaps with other documentation, but provides an inferior experience:
...

It is a good idea! It would be nice to be less redundant.

I concern about a minor drawback.
Wiki is easier to edit than repository.

Personally, I don't dare enough to edit and commit to the Ogre holy repository, but I feel relax to edit wiki whenever I found an error / broken links / want to add some short description.
It may be just my own feeling.

[EricB]

I echo hyyou's sentiments. The current wiki system (Tiki) has always been crap, but I don't like some of Paroj's plans either.

Wikis are designed for crowd sourced documentation. I can easily sign up, edit pages, add pages, and everything is great.

for tutorial/ sample code Doxygen is the way to go as it integrates with the API reference.

I am not going to edit Doxygen tutorials, is the core Ogre team planning on implementing perfect tutorials for Ogre 2.x? Because I don't think you'll get much if any third party contribution. Which most of the useful wiki samples/code is completely from non-core team members.

for external projects, github offers source code browsing & issue tracking.

I don't want to go through hundreds of people's github pages to find samples on how to load plugin.cfg with Ogre::Root function like I helped someone on IRC today with. In the wiki it's easy. !Ogrewiki practical application. The information is all there on how to actually properly set up Ogre3d. I don't want to go through hundreds of repos, and look through hundreds of forks just to find one that can work for someone on IRC. The one I link from the wiki is the up to date working example. And if not, I can easily change it and no one else has to dig through hundred repos and forks to find it.

On top of that, I hate git, and I hate github. (Although it is better than hg and bitbucket I guess.) :\

The idea isn't totally bad. I just don't think github is well designed for the idea. It's not organized enough. It's very fragmented. And it's third party software/websites.

the remaining things, should rather be on the frontpage where they are more discoverable.

Of course after I crap on everything else, my work is singled out.
If we implement this on the front page, I would like someone with some web programming skills to work with the Steam Spy API (and a db) to automate the thing. It's a PITA to manually type in all the data. Specially with how large the chart has grown. (If we get rid of the need for me to manually enter data, I can start adding non-steam games, foss, and mobile stuff to the list.


I think the solution is not to get rid of the wiki, but to simplify it. Personally I would rather see us switch to Doku wiki. Use Doxygen for official tutorials, use the Doku to organize repo-hosted code samples with the ability to create tutorials to supplement those repos. I've never been a fan of Github's readme pages. So I don't think they're a good place to host stuff like: http://wiki.ogre3d.org/Practical+Applic ... ganization . And I don't have faith (from the last 15 years of lurking around here) that the Ogre team will provide FreeBSD quality level documentation on Ogre. (And I mean no offense to the current staff, I know there has been almost a complete turn over in staff, and documentation is the worst part of any software.)

The only problem I see with my proposal is that you do not control anything on github. Someone wants to delete their sample code. Guess what, it's gone.

Summation. Third party contribution to Doxygen would probably be reduced. Going Github for third party samples is a bad idea because the code can be lost on a third party's whim, most people are bad at documenting things on Github, and I don't want to look through hundred forks of samples. Finally you will have a difficult time organizing github samples. Thus taking up more core team time. I'd rather see official documentation in Doxygen, the wiki system simplified and used to organize and supplement code samples and examples. I do not mind code samples being hosted on third party platforms, but would like to have samples uploaded to the wiki so there is zero chance of code being lost.

Just my two cents. Be sure to back up the tiki if you plan on nuking it!

[paroj]

Wikis are designed for crowd sourced documentation. I can easily sign up, edit pages, add pages, and everything is great.

so is github - just better suited for code related thigs

I am not going to edit Doxygen tutorials,

why not? It is just as easy as editing the wiki. Look for e.g. at https://ogrecave.github.io/ogre/api/1.1 ... Scene.html
editing that is just as easy as going to https://github.com/OGRECave/ogre/edit/m ... torial1.md
It will even guide you through the process of forking and creating a pull-request. You can do everything in the browser - just like with the wiki.

Basically everything is just markdown with some doxygen extensions. The github preview function works for most parts.

BTW: the manual is nowadays markdown too: https://github.com/OGRECave/ogre/blob/m ... /manual.md

I don't want to go through hundreds of people's github pages to find samples on how to load plugin.cfg with Ogre::Root function like I helped someone on IRC today with.

People tend to ask the same questions, so ideally it should be in the official doxygen in the manual or the tutorial section or in the API comment for Root. As you see we still have too much choice here

But even if it would not belong in the main repo, I would at most create an additional OGRECave/snippets project which would be the kitchen-sink for everything. No need for hundreds of forks.

The only problem I see with my proposal is that you do not control anything on github. Someone wants to delete their sample code. Guess what, it's gone.

would be also covered.

If we implement this on the front page, I would like someone with some web programming skills to work with the Steam Spy API (and a db) to automate the thing. It's a PITA to manually type in all the data. Specially with how large the chart has grown. (If we get rid of the need for me to manually enter data, I can start adding non-steam games, foss, and mobile stuff to the list.

I though you already have a script to generate that table? anyway lets take one step at a time. First the stage, then the automation. In any case that script should run locally on your machine and not on the ogre servers.

[insider]

"The full source for this tutorial (BasicTutorial1.cpp) can be found in samples directory Samples/Tutorials."
"The full source for this tutorial is here."

The first one mentioned above is for the Basic Tutorial 1 & 2 and the rest have the source on the site ?
IMHO they should all be on the site, unless you want a beginner to run between the Samples folder and the site, frankly I have never seen the samples folder until I wanted to see the setup for HDR lighting 3 years after using Ogre

[frostbyte]

ok guys, you can stop crying, I have added an extension that allows you to spread love. You just need to figure out a trading rate to kudos..

raddish...this hearts system is no good...
beside that strange "AA support group meeting" vibe ( should be AAA ) the heart counter only accumulates per post...
i suggest finding something more suitable for ogre( maybe skulls? )

[EricB]

Sorry for the late reply, my work takes priority and I've been pretty busy.

Just remember, these are all opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. I'm an old man, I hate a lot of the direction things are going in these days.

so is github - just better suited for code related thigs

Sure, but it is also designed as a code repo, not for documentation. It would require me to pull things, fork things, look at branches, etc. All on a horrible web 2.0 centric UI design which is made for programmers getting code, not for a person reading a manual. Too many barriers for a novice programmer, too many layers for those of us that just want a quick answer.

why not? It is just as easy as editing the wiki. Look for e.g. at https://ogrecave.github.io/ogre/api/1.1 ... Scene.html
editing that is just as easy as going to https://github.com/OGRECave/ogre/edit/m ... torial1.md
It will even guide you through the process of forking and creating a pull-request. You can do everything in the browser - just like with the wiki.

Basically everything is just markdown with some doxygen extensions. The github preview function works for most parts.

To me a Doxygen is an official documentation. It is not made for my musings about sales figures of Ogre games for example. Nor is it for a wide variety of information, useless projects, list of random things, documentation, and code examples. Doxygen to me is for well organized, structured, manual. I am not one to contribute to it. The official Ogre team is.

Yes, users can submit things, but I think it will ultimately cut down on the submissions. The quality and organization would be improved however. I know I would have never submitted the Ogre sales list to a dyoxgen. Nor would I expect to find half of the useful and useless information you run across on the wiki. I guess all of that should be done on the forums alone now.

So switching to Doxygen is just a simple Quantity or Quality solution. Doxygen will improve your quality, but will reduce your quantity, because you will not get as many submissions in my opinion. I know I will not submit if my work has to be approved, accepted, merged, pulled, or whatever you kids wanna call it these days.

why not? It is just as easy as editing the wiki. Look for e.g. at https://ogrecave.github.io/ogre/api/1.1 ... Scene.html

Looks very documentation like. Great for official stuff, but I'm not going to touch it or write well enough that I would would want to submit my work for someone else to peer review. Quality vs Quantity.

editing that is just as easy as going to https://github.com/OGRECave/ogre/edit/m ... torial1.md
It will even guide you through the process of forking and creating a pull-request. You can do everything in the browser - just like with the wiki.

Sorry, but NO. I'm not forking a damn thing on github just to fix a broken link or something. I have zero interest in duplicating your project on my account. I wouldn't even have a github or use git if I could avoid it. (Self hosted Trac and SVN for the win!)

BTW: the manual is nowadays markdown too: https://github.com/OGRECave/ogre/blob/m ... /manual.md

And that's fine for Official documentation (although I think the idea of having it on a third party platform is stupid). However I am not going to go through all that effort and work to fix errors or write my own information. I would never sign up for a github account or any other large thirdparty data collection service if I could avoid it. That's just me.

As you see we still have too much choice here

If the dev team only knew. We have a little bot on IRC, named Veda. Most of the questions we get can quickly be answered asking her. In the Ogre Root question above, !ogrewiki practical application. Bam, all the questions the user has answered.

But even if it would not belong in the main repo, I would at most create an additional OGRECave/snippets project which would be the kitchen-sink for everything. No need for hundreds of forks.

Again, as someone who hates git, github, etc. Looking around various github snippets would be annoying as well. But if that's the "in" thing these days, guess I can't avoid it.

I though you already have a script to generate that table? anyway lets take one step at a time. First the stage, then the automation. In any case that script should run locally on your machine and not on the ogre servers.

I do not have a script, I avoid web programming like the plague. I type everything in manually for the charts. (The list grew much larger than I expected...) There is a steamspy API which returns the results as JSON. Since I hate anything with the word "java*" in it, I have zero interest in learning how to pull the data out of it (short of just reading the raw string in C) and displaying it. I asked on the forum if anyone was interested in writing something to do it dynamically, but got no takers.

[paroj]

Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

so if you are over 35 and hate git, I can imagine that you do not like my proposal..

[EricB]

Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

so if you are over 35 and hate git, I can imagine that you do not like my proposal..

Not quite that old yet, but I have been online since 96' and using a computer (to play lemmings in dos) since 93'. So I can see how that quote sorta fits me.

[EricB]

Speaking of moving documentation to github. All manuals for older versions, such as Ogre 1.7, are now redirecting to the 1.10.9's github.io page. I see no way to change versions on this page, so I assume you have purged old data needlessly.

Is there any place we can get the old manuals for the old versions of Ogre still used in production?
(And yes, I know for the most part, they are the same.)

Luckily Archive.org has an archive, but still, needless data loss is very bad practice.

[paroj]

the manual for 1.7 is still where it was before:
http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual.old/

/docs/manual/ redirects the core pages to 1.10 for discoverability. I added a symlink so you can get around the redirects: http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual18/

[EricB]

the manual for 1.7 is still where it was before:
http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual.old/

/docs/manual/ redirects the core pages to 1.10 for discoverability. I added a symlink so you can get around the redirects: http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual18/

Sorry, I was getting 1.7 documentation confused with 1.8 documentation. 1.8 was what I was referring to.

In any case, is there any places that link to these redirects? Otherwise it would be pretty difficult for anyone, even google's spiders, to find it. (I did do a google search before complaining, and the change even broke our IRC bot... >.>)

Anyway, thanks for the links!

[paroj]

the heart counter only accumulates per post...

look again..

[sercero]

Thanks Eric,

I am a beginner, and for me the wiki has been invaluable.

Bullet Physics had the wiki down for over a year now and there is information there that is very important for someone who is just starting. Now I have to browse it through the internet archive.

So please, do not get rid of the wiki (correct me if I misunderstood ).

Thanks.