John McCain's VP nominee Sarah Palin

[KevinMulder]

In this case why not just elect the pope? He has OpenVPN to God.

[Zool]

What I am asking, is where in American history has any President initiated some foreign or domestic action because "God told them to"? Political speech is just that -- speech. It's meaningless

I don't think it's "meaningless" as you put it. On the contrary, when someone uses the "will of God" and "plan from God" line of reasoning, this is a strong indication that this person will not enter a debate with rational thinking, based on facts.

I'd say it can be very rational from a Cadidate's POV to talk about god. Actually it was stupid if they didn't.

I agree 100% but this is not what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about the candidate mentioning God and his faith in a spiritual context ("I pray to God every night", "God helped me through difficult times", "God bless america" etc.)
I'm talking about the candidate making policy statements based on God.

You can argue that the candidate just brings up God in speeches and has no effect on his decisions, but more often than not, mentioning God to justify a policy or actions by the administration indicates a lack of rational argument. And in the case of Palin I think this is even more true.

[warmi]

I don't think it's "meaningless" as you put it. On the contrary, when someone uses the "will of God" and "plan from God" line of reasoning, this is a strong indication that this person will not enter a debate with rational thinking, based on facts.

I'd say it can be very rational from a Cadidate's POV to talk about god. Actually it was stupid if they didn't.

I agree 100% but this is not what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about the candidate mentioning God and his faith in a spiritual context ("I pray to God every night", "God helped me through difficult times", "God bless america" etc.)
I'm talking about the candidate making policy statements based on God.

You can argue that the candidate just brings up God in speeches and has no effect on his decisions, but more often than not, mentioning God to justify a policy or actions by the administration indicates a lack of rational argument. And in the case of Palin I think this is even more true.

What you think makes no difference.
What really matters is her record and there is nothing there that would indicate any lack of rationality.

[Zool]

What you think makes no difference.
What really matters is her record and there is nothing there that would indicate any lack of rationality.

Employing the holy spirit to justify policy positions is irrational.

[KungFooMasta]

Employing the holy spirit to justify policy positions is irrational.

Zool, can you provide us with specific instances? (Seriously, I would like to know)

[Zool]

can you provide us with specific instances?

Sure: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/0 ... 23205.html

...our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's will

[Nauk]

What really matters is her record and there is nothing there that would indicate any lack of rationality.

Isn't Palin just like Bush a convinced follower of creationism or did I get that wrong?

[warmi]

can you provide us with specific instances?

Sure: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/0 ... 23205.html

...our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's will

So what?

As I said before, this is nothing new ... you will find very similar stuff in just about every presidential speech (Kennedy, Roosevelt, Carter, Reagan .. you name them)

Think of it this way .. for instance Brits have their own weird traditions - their King, Queen and all their funky Lords.
To me it seems ludicrous and personally it think nonsense like this has no place in a modern society but that's their tradition and frankly, is none of my business.

As long as their King is not trying to go medieval on them .. who gives a damn.

It is the same thing with all these references to religion, God and whatnot.
As long as they don't mess with my life and don't try to force this nonsense on me ... I don't really give a damn.

[xavier]

can you provide us with specific instances?

Sure: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/0 ... 23205.html

...our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's will

Co-Founder & Editor-in-Chief: Arianna Huffington

I wouldn't really call anything written or controlled by Huffington either unbiased or authoritative...

Seriously, people, if you are going to post news-source links to buttress a point you are making, you need to make sure it originated with something *real* like AP or Reuters...

[Zool]

I wouldn't really call anything written or controlled by Huffington either unbiased or authoritative...

Um.. there's a video in that link in which you can watch her saying these things. Can't get more objective than that..

[xavier]

Yes, I've seen the video. She's talking to a CHURCH ASSEMBLY -- what else do you expect her to say?

No one here yet has demonstrated where anything she said there has resulted in actual public policy implementation. Even the pipeline project predates her.

[VictorMoran]

Yes, I've seen the video. She's talking to a CHURCH ASSEMBLY -- what else do you expect her to say?

Really, so how it is that Obama has been tried and hold responsible for what his pastor had said?

Well if you think the republican ticket is the only one that can fix the damage caused to this country by the republican in the past 8 years,
then you should vote for Palin/McCain for president.
It is like a comedy, the republican are saying they are going to clean up Washington,
So I guess they mean they will replace the corrupt republican politicians with new even more corrupted ones.
In the meantime people are forgetting who controlled Washington for the past 8 years and on what side Mccain was during that time.
Does anybody remember the nuclear option?

Christians do not respect established laws or civil principles, because they think they are act in the name of God.
In the next three or four years there will be another chance to appoint one, perhaps two Judges to the supreme court.
The chances that two more fundamentalist like Alito, Scalia or Thomas are appointed are very high with this republican ticket.
Now the balance of the court is split, with just one more partisan Judge and country will be heading for a fundamentalist theocracy politically, and a factious state controlled by Multinational corporations.
Forget about civil rights, woman right to chose, Habeas corpus, etc. all may be overturned.

If you think it is farfetched you remember this.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/03/08/c ... evolution/
It will only be a matter of taking the case to the suppreme court knowing ing that it will be a mechanical verdict in favor of the Christian right.

[xavier]

Yes, I've seen the video. She's talking to a CHURCH ASSEMBLY -- what else do you expect her to say?

Really, so how it is that Obama has been tried and hold responsible for what his pastor had said?

I agree, that's ridiculous as well.

If you think it is farfetched you remember this.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/03/08/c ... evolution/
It will only be a matter of taking the case to the suppreme court knowing ing that it will be a mechanical verdict in favor of the Christian right.

Actually, that's a pretty farfetched extremist view of that particular situation.

I refer you to the Scopes trial, and in particular the decision of the US Supreme Court in 1968:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

You'll note that the Establishment Clause in the context of creation vs evolution has already been tried, tested and decided upon. 40 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epperson_v._Arkansas

And again in 1987, the exact thing you assume to be fait accompli, has *already* been ruled unconstitutional:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_v._Aguillard

The Supreme Court in the vast majority of cases declines to go against past decisions, so your "guaranteed outcome" is pure unedcuated fantasy and borderline scare tactics.

Next time you might try a little personal research yourself instead of just looking up convenient Internet links that support your views.



And finally, Victor, if you actually bothered to read what others have posted here, you might have noticed that if I have expressed *any* preference at all in these forums, it's for an Obama presidency over a McCain one.

[Zool]

She's talking to a CHURCH ASSEMBLY -- what else do you expect her to say?

Here's what I'd expect from a rational person to say to a CHURCH ASSEMBLY:

..our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out to end the suffering of the people in Iraq and bring democracy and the liberties of this great country. We have to keep praying for them every night, pray for God to look after them in the battlefield.

(Ok, after rereading the quote above it seems equal ridiculous to the original one)

[Zool]

You'll note that the Establishment Clause in the context of creation vs evolution has already been tried, tested and decided upon. 40 years ago.

creation vs evolution - it's over
intelligent design vs evolution - not so much..

[weshowe]

We have a standing prohibition here against the establishment of a religion. That by no means is a prohibition of religion, because that would run counter to our traditions, also.

Freedom of association means you don't have to be friends with (or vote for) people that don't subscribe to your beliefs or values system, but it doesn't mean these things go away just because they are not liked by someone.

Holding personal religious beliefs is no disqualifier to being an elected official. BOTH of the (major party) presidential and BOTH of their vice-presidential candidates have professed their beliefs. Mr. Biden is a "practicing Catholic". When I was a boy, the fact that JFK was Catholic was made into a big deal during the Kennedy-Nixon race. But after he was elected, the Vatican had no more influence in our government that it did before.

My belief is that a lot of people who thought that the strength of Republican party was dead and gone have been rudely interrupted from their dreams of a filibuster-proof majority and control of all branches of government. Ms. Palin is just evidence of, not the source of, the sleeping strength of the center and right in this country. While no one can predict what will happen in the elections, I don't expect whoever wins will do so with an overwhelming mandate. It's gonna be a squeeker.

<* Wes *>

[VictorMoran]

You'll note that the Establishment Clause in the context of creation vs evolution has already been tried, tested and decided upon. 40 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epperson_v._Arkansas

And again in 1987, the exact thing you assume to be fait accompli, has *already* been ruled unconstitutional:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_v._Aguillard

The Supreme Court in the vast majority of cases declines to go against past decisions, so your "guaranteed outcome" is pure unedcuated fantasy and borderline scare tactics.

Next time you might try a little personal research yourself instead of just looking up convenient Internet links that support your views.

You are forgetting the 2005 Dover, Kansas vs the boards of education.
Those are not random links they are power points facts, it is amazing how republican had mastered the art of shutting down the messenger to kill the message.
Those links expose the record of what the republican had done in the past 8 years.
You are naïve if you think the republican are Honorable people that will not brake or change the laws to serve their purpose.
Don’t you remember that we are a nation on an illegal war based on cooked intelligence?
Don’t you remember violation FISA on domestic spying?
Don’t you remember the repeals of Posse Comitatus Act?
Don’t you remember the repeals of Habeas Corpus?
Don’t you remember the repeal of the Ginebra convention on the treatment of prisoners of war?

On the religion and education, perhaps you should read about Discovery Institute and his policies.
Every 15 to 20 years this group reformulates the cases for evolution and start the legal fight against the education all over again, you had listed some of the cases on Creationist and Intelligence Design.
Don’t you think that if it was settled law then they will let go. Instead the use a word processor and change the word Creationist to Intelligence design and they claim it is a new scientific theory and it deserves to be tough in Scholl.
They regroup and start over every time they think the political climate is favorable to get a good Verdi, so that they can have a precedent.
The only reason the case has not gone to the Supreme Court is because the Supreme Court up until know had being neutral, and they know they go against the outcome of a minor court.
But what will happens when the court have two more Justices like Scalia or Thomas?
Will the court be so neutral knowing they will have 6 fundamentalist in their body?
How many times will you have to listen to Dr James Dopson and Pad Roberson saying publically on BRAND NAME that they will not rest until they overturn the teaching of evolution and biology in public schools?

If you think the republican will not change the political landscape on this nation, just listen what Mccain respond about the Roe v. Wade. this pass week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D8sFhe9WwU
He will not overturn but he will appoint Judges that will do it for him.
To me is it quite clear he is pondering to the religious right and he will do whatever it takes to win, including lying and going against his own principles.

[xavier]

You are naïve if you think the republican are Honorable people that will not brake or change the laws to serve their purpose.

Actually, I don't recall ever mentioning this one way or the other.

Now that you mention it, I do recall Bill Clinton inventing all sorts of executive privilege when it suited his needs...seems that the Republicans are not the only ones who forget about the rule of law, eh?

He will not overturn but he will appoint Judges that will do it for him.

And you are forgetting (or willfully ignoring) the fact that the President does not appoint justices at will -- they have to be ratified by the Senate. If I were you, and this worried me as much as it apparently does you, then I'd be more concerned with who is elected to Congress (specifically the Senate) than I would who is elected President.

How many times will you have to listen to Dr James Dopson and Pad Roberson saying publically on BRAND NAME that they will not rest until they overturn the teaching of evolution and biology in public schools?

I have to assume you meant Dr. James Dobson, and Pat Robertson...

Given that neither of those people are elected officials, I am not really inclined to listen to what they have to say.

On a side note, it's really amusing watching you get all emotional and worked up over things that don't really matter...

[VictorMoran]

On a side note, it's really amusing watching you get all emotional and worked up over things that don't really matter...

There you go again taking the high road and shutting the messenger.
If you think this time around the same team that committed all the above, will do it right,
then by all mean you vote for them. I am not willing to take that chance with my vote. And perhaps some people remember some of the facts.
Since it is evident that republicans are counting on the short attention span and the amnesia of the American people.

And for the record, Do you know how many graduates from Regency University (Pat Roberson Bible School of law) were serving on the white house when the abuses of powers on the justice department blew up?
Look it up, you will find out that Christians right do have more influence on republican administrations that you are willing to give then, based on your grade school civics lessons.
Search for Monica Goodling.

[xavier]

If you think this time around the same team that committed all the above, will do it right,

Wow, you really *don't* listen, do you?

BTW, do you know how many of the individuals who occupied (or aspired to) the actual office of POTUS, were Skull And Bones members?

You're not making a real solid case here -- guilt by association is a tenuous argument at best.

[Zool]

Do you realize that if Sarah Palin was a short man, with black hair, and a silly moustache, she would look a lot like.. HITLER?
And you want to give her your vote ??

[syd]

What must be taken into consideration, is that she may become president. She is scary, and I hope americans noticed that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtIJr3hPD8U&NR=1

[Zool]

Palin is a far more exciting media personality than McCain and she probably surpasses Obama too.
Also way more people will identify with her, like this example

"She's every mom," said Lindsey Denny, a mother of 7, including a set of quintuplets, two of whom have special needs like Palin's infant son with Down syndrome. Denny said Palin's inclusion on the ticket was "110 percent" the reason why she went to see her Saturday.

2 things I'd like to say:

Best. VP pick. Ever.

and

Four. More. Years.

[syd]

2 things I'd like to say:

Best. VP pick. Ever.

and

Four. More. Years.

I don't think it'll get to that point, I just can't believe it will.
so rather than being that pessimistic, we should wait & see...

[syd]

for people who like Saturday Night live, here is some entertainement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfrEoXWAU5Q