War in South Ossetia

[jjp]

Please, don't compare political figures to Hitler. That is always the point where you either show a lack of history knowledge or look like you are trying to distort reality.

[haffax]

One thing no one has mentioned: If Georgia all of sudden started to decimate S. Ossetia why did Russia happen to have 10,000+ troops and an entire fleet ready to go? Those kind of forces take at minimum a few days to mobilize and most likely weeks. This furthers the argument that Russia has been ready to invade Georgia and was provoking them until they made the mistake they made on Friday.

Russia has troups ready since April, because the conflict got more and more heated. So no secret plans to be found because of that. Both Russia and Georgia violated treaties made between them regarding the two autonomous regions. No party, neither Russia nor South Ossetia nor Abkhazia nor Georgia made any move to calm down. Blame is on both, not just Russia.

If you ignore what is coming out of the news outlets about what has happened in south Ossetia (I highly doubt the Georgians tried to ethnically "cleanse" the province), it is Putin that comes off looking more like Hitler, and Russia like Nazi Germany of the late 1930's. I am not saying Putin is out for genocide, he is just using the same tactics another empire building strongman used in recent history.

The evidence is as follows:
* Putin has created a youth group to incite nationalism and distrust of the USA/Westwhich is scarily similar to the Hitler Youth (of course not with the same Genocidal goals)
* There have been reports that Russia incited groups within Ossetia to attack Georgian forces, which triggered the Georgia counter act and gave Russia the excuse to move in. If thats true its very similar to what Germany did before it invaded Poland.

The Putin Youth is scary indeed. And nationalism is strong too. But the Htiler comparison is ridiculous and the reports about how the war started is Georgia's version. So just not to be trusted.
Here is the other version how it started: There have been many minor battles in the last few weeks getting much worse last week. Last Thursday evening Georgia declared a one sided cease of fire, as the fighting went on over the night from South Ossetian troups, Georgia saw this as a breach of the cease of fire treaty (which the other side never agreed to)
and started the full blown war.


Btw, strong arming is something USA can do equally well. The start of the Iraq war was one big lie too.
There is no good and no bad party here morally. This is politics and politics is ugly. When USA are now calling Russia to respect country integrity of Georgia than one has to ask about country integrity of Serbia. It is the same game only with swapped roles.

I don't like Russia at all. It is one of the countries I can never imagine to live in, unlike USA which I can imagine quite well. But this doesn't mean we can blame everything onto them. I am confident that the following days when the dust settles we will know more.

[Beatheart]

russian site about vote on CNN.com After this result they choose other theme for vote.

http://images.km.ru/news/grekova/main/cnn1.jpg
http://images.km.ru/news/grekova/main/cnn2.jpg

http://www.km.ru/magazin/view.asp?id={3 ... VhcmFudGVl

American people support Russia. Only government not support - they support Georgia.

[haffax]

russian site about vote on CNN.com After this result they choose other theme for vote.

http://images.km.ru/news/grekova/main/cnn1.jpg
http://images.km.ru/news/grekova/main/cnn2.jpg

http://www.km.ru/magazin/view.asp?id={3 ... VhcmFudGVl

American people support Russia. Only government not support - they support Georgia.

Polls on internet sites are meaningless. Poll crashing is easily done, and from what I've seen in internet activities I find it likely that the result is due to lots of Russian voters.

[warmi]

russian site about vote on CNN.com After this result they choose other theme for vote.

http://images.km.ru/news/grekova/main/cnn1.jpg
http://images.km.ru/news/grekova/main/cnn2.jpg

http://www.km.ru/magazin/view.asp?id={3 ... VhcmFudGVl

American people support Russia. Only government not support - they support Georgia.

Heheh ...nice try.

[madmarx]

You just can't compare Putin and Hitler. That is just godwin point / Reductio ad Hitlerum. Hitler was crazy, power hungry.

Putin accepted a role he never chose, and then realised he was doing the best job from his point of view. He seems to be very cunny. And he just don't like/trust usa.

You could maybe compare him to Mitterand (who killed political enemies and also partly causes genocides in other countries), but not to hitler please.

Now:
- why was there russian armies just near georgia?
---> georgia was said to enter NATO in 2009.
---> there are always been armies at russian frontiers with other European countries.
----> georgia was instable from 10 years ago...

- why is Putin destroying georgia army?
---> georgia was said to enter NATO in 2009.
---> give an example to other border-countries.
---> no real danger for russian army.
---> he has an army. it is not made for fun.
---> South O was attacked by Georgia first (gives him a 'good reason').
---> help people from South-O?

- why it is a problem for Putin that georgia is friend with usa?
---->Georgia is situated in a geologically favourable position at the western end of the oil rich geological province known as the Kura Basin. In 1981, during Soviet times, production of oil and gas in Georgia exceeded 70,000 bpd.
----> usa are extremely power hungry, and programs like "starwars" are not a good news, because
- it is seen as a threat (usa seems to attack anybody these days, and to be not directed by politicians anymore).
- russia has no interest in competiting for weapons anymore.


Well my point of view.

[Beatheart]

The same:

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=221869
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... 586262/pg1
http://bredholly.livejournal.com/122817.html
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.cult ... d?lnk=raot

[warmi]

Putin accepted a role he never chose, and then realised he was doing the best job from his point of view.

Yeah, he is kind of like Jesus I guess ... all that power must be a terrible burden to him but he will bear it for the good of mother Russia ( and undoubtely humanity at large)
I guess we need more politicians like that ex-KGB man Putin - they are the only thing that stands between moderng humanity and the warmongering and blood-thirsty countries like US.

[warmi]

The same:

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=221869
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... 586262/pg1
http://bredholly.livejournal.com/122817.html
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.cult ... d?lnk=raot

Russian flashmob on CNN's Quickvote now is shut down

I don't think it helps your cause ...

[Beatheart]

ere is the other version how it started: There have been many minor battles in the last few weeks getting much worse last week. Last Thursday evening Georgia declared a one sided cease of fire, as the fighting went on over the night from South Ossetian troups, Georgia saw this as a breach of the cease of fire treaty (which the other side never agreed to)
and started the full blown war.

it's not true.
Georgia started this war. Somthing about 2000 people died there, not solders - civilian people, now a big part of this people is in Vladikavkaz and other parts of Russia - they all in shock? crying! South Ossetia and Abhazia is on Russian side. Georgia is on USA side. Georgian Michail Saakasvili is a criminal, puppet of USA. Just a fucking puppet! Part of his crime is USA's crime. IT IS TRUE. USA dot't want to talk about it as genocid, but it is so!
They wanted to get South Ossetia and Abhazia. Russia dot't let them. It was killing of innocent people. 4 days people lived in undergrounds with no water and food. A lot of civilians killed in cold blud. Georgian solders burn some peole alive! If Georgia would get Abhazia & Ossetia NATO would came to this region and Abhazia & Ossetia would never get their freedom.
Now Russia will help, rebuild Tshinval, help to get freedom.

[Edited by haffax]

[haffax]

Beatheart, you're not helping your cause at all, I hope you realize that.
This mindless ranting will impress no one.

But thank you for reminding us that war is ugly and many atrocities are being committed. I don't doubt for a second that some Georgians went too far, I also don't doubt that the opposite happend by South Ossetians and others.

[Kojack]

russian site about vote on CNN.com After this result they choose other theme for vote.

From at least one of your links:

Russian flashmob on CNN's Quickvote now is shut down

Ummm, wtf?
It's a "QuickVote".
It changes every day! Of course the russian support poll has vanished, not because so many people supported russia, but because EVERY POLL DOES!
The data is still there:
http://edition.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/resul ... ntent.html

I don't want to take sides in this since I'm in a completely different hemisphere and have zero verifiable evidence of what's really happening, but laughable conspiracy theories like a poll which changes daily changing doesn't help.

Especially when one of your links (the godlike productions one) has in it's banner the words: "ufos, conspiracy theorists, lunatic fringe". That really doesn't help.

[Beatheart]

http://www.russiatoday.com/news

OUR VISSION

[Beatheart]

May be this vote is fake, I don't know.
I just want to share with you my point of view.
The war is ugly, but I gues a COLD WAR is still here, in our world wright now! Now in 21-st sentury must not happen things like this war.

[Beatheart]

South Ossetia: four days under Georgia’s attack
The conflict in South Ossetia has already left more than 1,600 people dead and tens of thousands homeless, and the breakaway republic’s capital is in ruins. The attack was a well prepared one. During the last years Georgia broke all records, having increased its military budget by 30 times.

The assault took place on the day the whole world was looking forward to start of the 2008 Summer Olympics in China.

Hours before the Georgian attack President Saakashvili was calling for peace and dialogue of all sides in the conflict.

And soon after the Georgian military shelled the capital of the breakaway region, Tskhinvali, with salvo fire.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev immediately called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council.

On the first day of the assault President Saakashvili announced that Georgian forces were in South Ossetia to reestablish constitutional order.

Within several hours, as soon as Russian troops entered South Ossetia, his wording made a dramatic turn, and he called it Russian aggression.

The western media broke out with headlines “Russia attacks Georgiaâ€

[Beatheart]

Civilians perish as Georgian troops torch church
The Regnum news agency is reporting that Georgian troops burned down a 10th century Orthodox church while terrified civilians perished inside. The agency quotes eyewitness accounts of the atrocity after all-out fighting in Khetagurovo, a small village near the republic’s capital Tskhinvali.

Almost all of those fighting to defend the village were killed, but the report says the fate of others, mostly women and the elderly, turned out to be even more horrible.

Eyewitnesses report that Georgian tanks literally ran people down and that soldiers took almost all the women to another location. Their fate is still unknown.

Meanwhile, those who didn’t manage to escape found their shelter in a 10th century Orthodox church. Civilians hoped that Georgians of the same faith wouldn’t dare storm the building, one of the oldest of its kind in the country.

But Regnum reports that the Georgian troops set the church on fire and left those inside to perish.

It is the latest in a series of reports of the Georgian military attacking and killing civilians

[Beatheart]

Fleeing from violence: more refugees to cross into Russia
Refugees from the fighting in South Ossetia are continuing to cross into Russia following the opening of a humanitarian corridor on Monday. 34,000 evacuees have already fled the conflict zone, while thousands continue to head for refugee camps in the neighbouring Russian Republic of North Ossetia.

Others would like to leave South Ossetia, but are unable to do so, as the gunfire continues in several districts.

Thousands expected

Alagir camp is the closest to the South Ossetian border. It is a place where refugees are being gathered and sent to Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachaevo-Cherkessia and Rostov-on-Don.

According to Kazbek Vasiev, head of the Alagir region’s administration, almost 1700 refugees have already found temporary shelter in the camp. Many people from North Ossetia are coming to check if any of their relatives are there.

More then 3,000 refugees are expected in the next couple of days. About a thousand of them are reported to be wounded.

Black Sea resort gives shelter to 300

More than 300 Ossetian refugees have found shelter at the Russian Black sea resort of Anapa in the Krasnodar region.The local administration in Anapa provided transportation, housing, food and clothes for the refugees.

Russia says it is prepared to accept any amount of refugees from Tskhinvali on the Black Sea coast. For South Ossetia's women, children and elderly this is one of just a few places where they can feel safe and try to forget the horrors they've seen as Georgia bombed their homes.

One refugee, Elena Kozaeva, said: “We saw that our house caught fire too, but didn't know where to go. We were so scared.â€

[haffax]

Please stop this Beatheart, or I will lock this thread.

[Beatheart]

Yes, lock this thread is very easy.
People, just try to look at this from other anle!

[haffax]

No, you're just spamming lots of reports here you already linked to partly and partly not.
It doesn't make sense, just because it has already been answered to and these reports don't change the answers because they don't present anything new.

You already presented the Russian side of the argument, it is understood. So unless you can add something substantial I consider this spam. And spam is not allowed.

And don't fall into victimhood, it doesn't suit anyone.

[tau]

Putin's Russian peacekeepers ?
That's a new one ...

Same goes to Bush's American "liberators" in Iraq

All I know that Russian peacekeepers were stationed in South Ossetia and did not invade Georgian territory... The South Ossetia's capital was bombed by Georgian forces invoking 3k+ civilian deaths, and after that the Georgian president was making jokes about it in public media...

[Game_Ender]

I haven't read many of the replies but I want to say the Hitler comparison was only to point out the absurdity in some of crazy websites linked earlier comparing the Georgian president to Hitler. Neither side is like Hitler, or the Nazi's, but least of all the Georgians.

(I have added an edited note to the post)

[tau]

I don't like Russia at all. It is one of the countries I can never imagine to live in, unlike USA which I can imagine quite well. But this doesn't mean we can blame everything onto them. I am confident that the following days when the dust settles we will know more.

Wow, Haffax, that a hell of a statement, man

Well, Russia has a very rich culture developed during many centuries, richer then in USA, where it's a mix of everything and Starbucks on top of it...

I think the major problem is western media was working very hard last 80 years to create a bad image of Russia (power struggle), as well as Iran (US overthrew the first Democratic government in Middle East) and China (controversial).

I've never seen Russia as aggressor despite media brain-washing machine, maybe because I was reading a lot about its history and events. The unfortunate October Revolution in 1917 changed russian direction, but even then (and before) Russia was (almost) the only one power to restore peace in Europe and the rest of the world (Austrian invasion, Napoleon invasion, First Reich invasion, Nazi(Second Reich) invasion, etc.); even US was always to provoke Soviet Union for a counter-action (Cuban Missile Crisis)...

Yet, US citizens should not forget that Russia helped our young country to fight for its independence by providing navy and supply support - few americans know about it...

But the bottom line is - politics define everything and it's dirty...

[Seregvan]

hey, guys, Russian president is Medvedev, not Putin =)

The conflict between Russia and Georgia lasts for a long time, but why somebody think that Georgia is right and russians are invaders? I want you to know, that the first victims was russians when Georgia's army fired
russian's peacekeeping forces in Osetia, Georgia started this conflict with Russia. And for now a lot of russian tourists in Georgia can't leave this country, but the russian goverment supports Georgia's tourists and peoples who working in Russia. Georgia's goverment closed all sites in the .ru domain, so neither russian embassy, nor russian tourists can't connect with Russia. And of cource (if you didn't know) Georgia advocates it's people to fight with Russia. Then, as everybody knows, Osetia wanted any help from Russia, because Osetia's independence was in danger.

So, maybe we don't know a lot of political things, but I know, that you shouldn't reproach russians if you don't know what is really happening... There are a lot of lie in the media, i think, so I would like to ask you to think about it...

PS: Everebody knows that USA biased to Russia ( i think both do ), so, just try to look at this from the side and try to understand what is really happening...

PPS: sorry for my bad english =))

[warmi]

Putin's Russian peacekeepers ?
That's a new one ...

Same goes to Bush's American "liberators" in Iraq

Nah .... there is a significant difference.
Americans do fuck up often but the military generally goes out of their way to avoid civilian casualties, which is exactly the opposite of what Russians are known for.
In other words, the great majority of people who died in Iraq in the last 5 years, were killed by their own countrymen – in Chechnya it was the other way around.

In any case, the point was that so called Russians peacekeepers in Ossetia are not a neutral party and thus referring to them as peacekeepers is ludicrous.