War in South Ossetia

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:30 pm

First, sorry for my English.
I'm from Russia, I guess all of you know about war in South Ossetia. This war is a real catastrophe for all of us!
I'm writing this to tell you that information in most of American & European TV channels is not true. It is not Russia started this war. Georgia started this war. South Ossetia was a part of Georgia and they want it back, but ossetian people don't want to. It's genocide against ossetians. Georgia started firenig ossetian territory using hard weapon - cannons and "GRAD" missels. And only after 15 hours Russian tanks came to Ossetia to save people and stop Georgian aggression. Something about 1500 people died under Georgian fire. 15 Russian peace keeper killed in first hours, killed by Georgian peace keepers, if they can call them selfâ€™s like this now!
Itâ€™s information war started now.
Iâ€™m very scared about all of this. Donâ€™t let real war start now!
When you watch news, donâ€™t believe everything, think!
I work in field of computer graphics, and Iâ€™m writing this to all of you, CG-people. Be smart, donâ€™t let confuse you!
HELP TO STOP THIS!!!

johnhpus · Post by **johnhpus** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:53 pm

I'm not saying I know anything about who did what to start this conflict. I clearly don't. But where do you get your information?

I know enough not to blindly trust our media and I expect most of the users here do too.

But unless you're directly involved in some way, how do you know who started it? Aren't you actually just repeating what *your* equally untrustworthy news outlets tell you?

It seems to me like Russia is in some ways not as "in check" by the US anymore, and they've found an opportunity to fight a nearby country that has been too friendly with the US. If you can somehow be impersonal about the actual anguish of a war, (perhaps because of my ignorance) it sounds like a reasonable strategic move.

Post by **betajaen** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:00 pm

In a certain part of the world we have a current situation where instead of fighting with weapons to prove our countries strength, we run, swim or play volleyball for competition, but ultimately it promotes peace and harmony with our neighbours.

It is an absolute shame that Russia and Georgia could not share in this.

nikki · Post by **nikki** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:27 am

betajaen wrote:In a certain part of the world we have a current situation where instead of fighting with weapons to prove our country's strength, we run, swim or play volleyball for competition, but ultimately it promotes peace and harmony with our neighbours.

It is an absolute shame that Russia and Georgia could not share in this.

madmarx · Post by **madmarx** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:38 am

You wrote:

It is not Russia started this war. Georgia started this war. South Ossetia was a part of Georgia and they want it back, but ossetian people don't want to. It's genocide against ossetians. Georgia started firenig ossetian territory using hard weapon - cannons and "GRAD" missels. And only after 15 hours Russian tanks came to Ossetia to save people and stop Georgian aggression.

We had exactly the same information in France. But it's not the more important. Even if everyone stops today, people living there will hate the other from both sides of georgia's frontier for a long time. In the 80s there were still people hating germans in France because of WWII.

Anyway I don't understand the georgian president. It is foolish to attack a region pro-russia just under the eye of russia.

It's really sad.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:41 am

Beatheart wrote:15 Russian peace keeper killed in first hours, killed by Georgian peace keepers, if they can call them selfâ€™s like this now!.

Putin's Russian peacekeepers ?
That's a new one ...

madmarx wrote: Anyway I don't understand the georgian president. It is foolish to attack a region pro-russia just under the eye of russia.

Sure it is .. especially given that Putin is back in the game just looking for an excuse to (re)create a new Russian/Soviet empire.

dial · Post by **dial** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:42 pm

The real situation in South Ossetia: http://war.georgia.su/

Fedor · Post by **Fedor** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:01 pm

warmi, it is very funny. Putin want to make Russia rich and powerful but it doesn't mean to make it a new Empire. If the ruler doesn't want to make his country rich for his country then it's strange. Russia is not against democracy in Georgia. Russia is against war crimes and stupidness of Saakhashvili. If the South Ossetian nation didn't want to have Russian passports, then they would not have them.

Georgia destroyed Ossetian and Abkhazian infrastructure during previous wars, why should they be with Georgia after that? People in this republics see that Russian nations live in peace, North Ossetians live in peace. Level of life in Russia is much higher than in Georgia, why should they be with Georgia? And after all why should they be pro-western if they see that Georgian regime is pro-vestern. Even Georgian people before these last diplomatic conflicts were working in Russia, because there are no work in Georgia.

_tommo_ · Post by **_tommo_** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:10 pm

warmi wrote: *
Putin's Russian peacekeepers ?
That's a new one ...
*
Sure it is .. especially given that Putin is back in the game just looking for an excuse to (re)create a new Russian/Soviet empire.

For once I agree with warmi: i also hear that Georgia stroke first, destroying some barracks, outposts and 5 fighters... but a normal western country wouldn't have his tanks in the country in 1 day from the begin of the war!
a country (and a leader) who hasn't imperialistic interest, would have declared war much more unwillingly... or at least in more time.
And we can also add the various spy attacks, censorships, resource monopolies and other not exaclty democratic or friendly acts that happened with Putin as leader.
So, for me it's hard to think that the russian are right... why anyway the Georgians attacked a state 1000x more powerful? That can be only crazyness, or a russian maneuver.

reptor · Post by **reptor** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:11 pm

dial wrote:The real situation in South Ossetia: http://war.georgia.su/

On 7th of August, 2008 Georgian armed forces, with orders from president Saakashvili invaded Republic of South Ossetia and started full-scale genocide of Ossetian nation, for so-called Â«Final SolutionÂ» of Ossetian Question, which shall be considered as action, equal to Hitlerâ€™s Nazi crimes.

Once again, georgians start a GENOCIDE OF OSSETIANS. If they still in Ossetia just for one month, there will be no ossetians at all. All ossetians could be killed by georgian invaders. Children, women, elders - every one.

We can't believe that it is possible in Europe in 21th age .

It's a Humanitarian Catastrophe of Ossetian People, similar to Nazi's Holocaust!

Q: Who is responsible for this war?

A: Saakashvili is responsible for this war. He told his troops to invade in Ossetia with tanks an rocket artillery. Saakashvili's occupants are kills civilians and totally destoy the ossetian city Tskhinvali. Saakashvili is a new Hitler. A Caucasian Hitler.

It's not exactly the kind of source I was looking for.

jjp · Post by **jjp** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:31 pm

Oh my, this is so absurd. If there wasn't people's life at stake I could laugh about it.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:29 pm

Fedor wrote:warmi, it is very funny. Putin want to make Russia rich and powerful but it doesn't mean to make it a new Empire. If the ruler doesn't want to make his country rich for his country then it's strange.

I don't doubt that.

He is just another incarnation of a typical Russian strongman (admittedly a modern, mild version) who lives by the credo "what's good for Putin is good for Russia" .
I won't say that he is not legit, in the sense, that he was elected and has popular support of the people but that's not saying much , since it seems that Russians, as a whole, seem to prefer to have a strongman running their daily affairs as opposed to a bickering , western style parliamentary institution.
Of course it is their country and their choice and I really have no business arguing otherwise.

On the other hand, I don't see much future for all these small nations to which Russians like to refer as "Ð±Ð»Ð¸Ð¶Ð½ÐµÐµ Ð·Ð°Ñ€ÑƒÐ±ÐµÐ¶ÑŒÐµ" ...

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:40 pm

On the other hand, I don't see much future for all these small nations to which Russians like to refer as "Ð±Ð»Ð¸Ð¶Ð½ÐµÐµ Ð·Ð°Ñ€ÑƒÐ±ÐµÐ¶ÑŒÐµ"

Why? mostly it's contries of former soviet union. No body wants to get back to Soviet Union now, but all of this small nations are still our friends. Georgian people our (russian) brothers, cristians. It's all just a durty politics make wars, not people.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:04 am

Beatheart wrote:No body wants to get back to Soviet Union now, but all of this small nations are still our friends. Georgian people our (russian) brothers, cristians. It's all just a durty politics make wars, not people.

When Russians refer to you as their "brother" that means it is time to start getting worried , their army is not far behind ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... gia.russia

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:45 am

http://georgia-vs-russia.com

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:50 am

People of the world. You are deceived! World mass media conduct propagnda and destribute false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 Georgian tanks invaded the city of Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment proceeded all the day long, there were attacks with the use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against civilians. 2000 civil people are dead already. The Russian peacemakers arrived in South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and to fight for peace in the republic and for protection of Russian citizens living on the territory of South Ossetia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia on the eve of the Olympics, this is the top of cruelty and cynicism.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:57 am

Beatheart wrote:People of the world. You are deceived! World mass media conduct propagnda and destribute false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 Georgian tanks invaded the city of Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment proceeded all the day long, there were attacks with the use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against civilians. 2000 civil people are dead already. The Russian peacemakers arrived in South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and to fight for peace in the republic and for protection of Russian citizens living on the territory of South Ossetia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia on the eve of the Olympics, this is the top of cruelty and cynicism.

Oh I am sure ... everyone is lying .. I guess we should be grateful to Putin and his state controlled media .... otherwise we would all be in the dark.

lXciD · Post by **lXciD** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:57 am

About this situation, I am not taking in anything from the US media. Because I seen so much propaganda US media have against the part of the world that doesn't practice democracy. I am sick of it. I only watch The Daily Show because I find it funny how the media is attacking each other in the US.

Secondly, I felt US still have something against Russia. They share so many disputes, it almost impossible for them to be good friends now.

Thirdly, I have enough of US interfering of other countries stuff. They overdo it. Sometimes its good but many times it bad. Busy body as we call it here. Seriously, many countries has already tell US to mind his own business.

So I tried to retrieve my information from a more neutral source. At least they don't try to come up with conclusion while trying to retrieve their information from different part of the world and it governed by people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Sou ... tia_(2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... ssetia_War

If you see the reaction of the country around Georgia, you can clearly see what most countries around there point of views are.

Georgia kill 1.6k civilians in its invasion into South Ossetia show how much Georgia government is treating this war.

At least russia only attack military side. Screw those Georgia land integrity. Did they just mean its mine land so I can kill any number of my civilians???

I'm fine with government trying to reclaim back their lands, but going into war and attack the civilians mindlessly? screw them.

The border of Georgia are land borders is not drawn by them but by I guess is UN. It might not what the people living in there want. Its not what exactly the people there wanted.

About Mr Putin, if a man could do a good job, I don't see why we don't want let him lead. And Russia do practice semi-presidential system and is a republic state. Share quite a few similarity with western system. Check your wiki please.

Its like telling Steve Jobs that you should stop running Apple, Pixar or disney. But he has been doing a good job.

I can't get why US is trying to democratizing everyone. Let the people choose the way their country is to be run. Isn't that the whole point of democratic? If people made their decision, please learn to respect them.

Anyway, if u do a search on Putin, he literally brought Russia back from brink of a national disaster. He made Russia prosperous again. Go read the history.

Just a side note why I am not siding US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratio ... ted_States

What have George Bush bring US. Well, you all are seeing it now, since you all elected him to run for 8 years. I am glad he finally stepping down and I begging US people, no McCain please...

P.S. US help train Georgia Military. That's why I am so pissed off...

dial · Post by **dial** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:20 am

Georgian propagation in action:
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/315 ... f46b1c.jpg
The corpse lays on a back.
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/8fb ... d5392a.jpg
The corpse is tired and has turned over on a stomach.
http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=0 ... 0_PICTURE7
The citizen has changed clothes for new shooting.
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/0d4 ... 80f24e.jpg
The grandmother who has lain still in three places - the Arabian experience was useful.
http://images.theage.com.au/2008/08/09/ ... -420x0.jpg
The poor Georgian grandmother "suffers" already in other place. Buahaha!!

Oh I am sure ... everyone is lying ..

Yes, certainly.

I guess we should be to Putin and his state controlled media

Oh, it is not necessary to be so naive. For today propagation of the West and the USA much more powerfully also is more influential. Here there are more than money.

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=lVrygbUzazA
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=7w3li07Ple8

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay.as ... 19398&dp=1
The house. To pay attention to a black pipe in an end face of the house and a white lattice on the second floor. Also we look at balconies in an end face of the house. Also we look at a column in an end face of the house and a stick which rests against it (is inclined). It will help to understand whence other photos are made.

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay.as ... 9423&dp=26
The same house only is closer.

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay.as ... 19406&dp=9
Even more close. The photographer has climbed on a heap of dust which was in the previous photo on the right. The person in a checkered shirt lays the person downwards. Near the person lays yellow Ñ‚Ñ€Ñ

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:39 am

lXciD wrote: I can't get why US is trying to democratizing everyone. Let the people choose the way their country is to be run. Isn't that the whole point of democratic?

What the heck are you talking about ?
This thread is about Russia and Georgia.

Personally , I think Shevardnadze made a huge mistake and frankly, he is paying for it now.

You have to be very careful with Putin since he is basically bend on creating a new Russian empire.
The Russians were just looking for an excuse and Shevardnadze foolishly gave one to them.

Post by **haffax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:16 am

The western countries are to be blamed a bit too, as we set a precedence case with Kosovo. Without Serbia agreeing to it, a part has been cut out of their country. There was no perspective for a common future between Kosovo Albanians and Serbians, but neither is there in South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Ossetians don't want to live in Georgia, they have a perspective together with Russia. Of course one can argue that it has been achieved by cold annexation over the years, but this doesn't matter for the end result. If the west would have seen this as a problem, they should have intervened earlier and shouldn't have set precedence in Kosovo.

Post by **Kojack** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:53 am

There's lots of mentioning of Putin in here, but nobody seems to blame Dmitry Medvedev. You know, since he replaced Putin as the president of Russia 3 months ago, is the commander in chief of the russian military, defines foreign policy, and according to chapter 4, article 87, part 2 of the russian constitution (chapter 4 covers the powers of the president):

In the event of aggression against the Russian Federation or an immediate threat thereof, the President of the Russian Federation shall introduce martial law on the territory of the Russian Federation or in areas thereof with immediate notification thereof of the Federation Council and the State Duma.

So he sounds like the guy actually responsible for whatever people believe russia is doing.

Post by **haffax** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:15 pm

Probably because many think, count me in, that Putin is still pulling the strings. It is not as if Medvedev has made much effort to come out of Putin's shadow.

reptor · Post by **reptor** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:30 pm

dial wrote:Georgian propagation in action:
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/315 ... f46b1c.jpg
The corpse lays on a back.
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/8fb ... d5392a.jpg
The corpse is tired and has turned over on a stomach.
http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=0 ... 0_PICTURE7
The citizen has changed clothes for new shooting.
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/0d4 ... 80f24e.jpg
The grandmother who has lain still in three places - the Arabian experience was useful.
http://images.theage.com.au/2008/08/09/ ... -420x0.jpg
The poor Georgian grandmother "suffers" already in other place. Buahaha!!
Oh I am sure ... everyone is lying ..
Yes, certainly.
I guess we should be to Putin and his state controlled media

Oh, it is not necessary to be so naive. For today propagation of the West and the USA much more powerfully also is more influential. Here there are more than money.

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=lVrygbUzazA
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=7w3li07Ple8

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay.as ... 19398&dp=1
The house. To pay attention to a black pipe in an end face of the house and a white lattice on the second floor. Also we look at balconies in an end face of the house. Also we look at a column in an end face of the house and a stick which rests against it (is inclined). It will help to understand whence other photos are made.

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay.as ... 9423&dp=26
The same house only is closer.

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay.as ... 19406&dp=9
Even more close. The photographer has climbed on a heap of dust which was in the previous photo on the right. The person in a checkered shirt lays the person downwards. Near the person lays yellow Ñ‚Ñ€Ñ

reptor · Post by **reptor** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:43 pm

dial wrote:The real situation in South Ossetia: http://war.georgia.su/

From that website:

By the way, as you can see at this video, there is no destruction in the georgian city of Gori, but some of western media says that Gori was heavily bombed by russians. They are liying, as they often did before.

The Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb visited the town of Gori and said that two apartment blocks have been bombarded:

http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.shtm ... /08/686155

TÃ¤llÃ¤ hetkellÃ¤ Stubb on georgialaisessa Gorin kaupungissa, jonka liepeillÃ¤ VenÃ¤jÃ¤ pommitti sotilaskohteita viikonloppuna.

- No sanotaan nyt vaikka, ettÃ¤ sodan jÃ¤ljet ovat aina ikÃ¤vÃ¤t. Me kÃ¤vimme katsomassa kahta kerrostaloa, joita on pommitettu. Nyt olemme menossa sairaalaan katsomaan haavoittuneita eli tÃ¤mÃ¤ on tilanne tÃ¤llÃ¤ hetkellÃ¤. Ei nÃ¤ytÃ¤ hyvÃ¤ltÃ¤, Stubb kuvailee.

My translation:

At the moment Stubb is in the Georgian town Gori, close to where Russia bombarded military targets on the weekend.

- Well let's say that the marks of war are always unfortunate. We went to look at the 2 apartment blocks which had been bombarded. Now we are going to the hospital to see the wounded so this is the situation here at the moment. It doesn't look good, Stubb describes.

So according to http://war.georgia.su/ there is no destruction in Gori, but according to the Finnish Foreign Minister, who visited the town of Gori today, there are at least 2 apartment blocks which have been bombarded.

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