Game without PC or console.... !

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steven
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Game without PC or console.... !

Post by steven »

This could impact all game developers so I think this is appropriate to draw your attention to it.
Just read the bold part it should give you incentives to read the rest of the article.

http://au.us.biz.yahoo.com/ap/090324/te ... .html?.v=4

Here is the text and yes I know I don't have the right to copy this text :mrgreen:

[Edit.... I see that Sinbad already saw this]
AP
No disks needed for startup's streamed video games
Tuesday March 24, 5:55 pm ET
By Barbara Ortutay, AP Technology Writer
Games on demand: Startup to offer streaming video games, no disks needed

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Music and movies can be streamed over the Internet, so why not video games?

A startup founded by technology entrepreneur Steve Perlman says it has developed a technology to deliver video games on demand, an idea that threatens to eventually take consoles out of the equation.

OnLive Inc., Perlman's Palo Alto, Calif.-based company, planned to unveil its technology Tuesday night at the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco.

Seven years in the works, OnLive says it has developed a way to stream video games without any lag that humans can notice. So the instant you press a button to shoot something on the screen, the gun goes off.

This has not been possible before, because unlike with music and movies, which can be compressed -- or put into smaller files that are more easily transferred online -- before being streamed, video games are interactive and require instant responses. That has meant video games needed to be played on consoles packed with computing power, like the Xbox or the PlayStation, or downloaded to personal computers that could process some of the data that enabled games to run.

OnLive's technology gets around that limitation with a new form of compression that lets its game servers communicate with players over broadband connections in real time. This also means OnLive's service can work on older computers, even those without a graphics processing unit that has until now been an essential component of gaming. Through a "MicroConsole" about the size of a cassette tape, OnLive's service will also be available for BRAND NAME sets.

In a recent demonstration, OnLive showed off "Crysis," a complex shooter game that's currently only available for PCs, played on a TV set through the little "console" and on a Mac laptop.

"It's the last console you'll need," said Perlman, a former principal scientist at Apple who in 1995 co-founded WebTV, bringing Internet access to TV sets. He later sold WebTV to Microsoft Corp. for more than $500 million.

OnLive says it would be difficult for its users to exceed the monthly bandwidth caps that Internet service providers are increasingly placing on their subscribers. A typical user would have to play about 284 hours -- nearly 12 full days -- to consume Comcast Corp.'s 250-gigabyte cap. Nielsen Co. estimates many gamers play roughly 60 hours a month.

OnLive plans to launch its service late this year for monthly subscription fees it has not disclosed. Most big-name game publishers, like Electronic Arts Inc., Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. and Eidos Interactive Ltd., have signed on, and OnLive says upcoming games will be available on the service at the same time they are released in stores. OnLive's investors include Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Bros., Autodesk Inc. and Maverick Capital.

Patrick Seybold, a spokesman at Sony Corp. -- maker of the PlayStation consoles and publisher of titles like "Killzone 2" and "LittleBigPlanet" -- said the company has a "competitive offering for consumers" with games distributed via both the Internet and disks.

Although OnLive may seem to offer a different approach, Seybold said, consumers may end up paying more and possibly sacrifice performance "when you get this into a real-world environment where multiple devices are plugged into one broadband connection."

If OnLive takes off as its backers hope, it could be a blow to retailers like GameStop Corp., just as digital music sales are closing up record stores and drying up CD sales -- not this year, or even next, but as inevitably as the death of the eight-track.

In fact, OnLive was the second major technology announced at the Game Developers Conference that relied on digital delivery. The Zeebo, an inexpensive video game console for emerging economies, downloads its games wirelessly rather than using disks.

"Retailers have a day of reckoning coming, and that's digital distribution," said IDC video games analyst Billy Pidgeon.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by xavier »

Game without PC or console.... !
Isn't that called "go play outside"? ;)
Do you need help? What have you tried?

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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Klaim »

Or with pen, paper and dice ;)


Anyway that non-hardware game seems cool in theory but suggest that the game and game sessions are hosted somewhere. So
1) you need to be online - we are not yet in Ghost In The Shell so there is not yet an available non-wired network around you ;
2) that hosting will certainly be more expensive to developers and/or producers, far more than the cost of hosting full game files to be downloaded online (that is currently widely used) - the hardware to run the games will have to be powerful in certain cases and will have to support a lot of clients at the same time, that might be very expensive;
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Speedo »

Looks to me like basically a hyped up version of VNC. I just don't see it being much of a threat anytime soon.

-Someone has to pay for the hardware. You know if people are going to play games via subscription they're going to demand the best graphics. If a company is going to have to buy thousands of high-end gaming rigs to run these games, their subscription prices will be pretty hefty...
-Broadband (at least in the US) has a LONG way to go. Residential accounts typically have crap upload speeds (like 1 Mbps or less), many areas have crap for broadband period (fastest I can get is 512 kbps), and many other areas simply don't have access to broadband.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Kojack »

They use Crysis as an example of it running. Ok...
Crysis has sold over a million copies and is a bit of a hardware hog even on a modern pc. That means that somebody (Crytek?) will have to buy a server farm of at least 1000000 high end pcs to render content and stream it to players. Of course not everyone in the world will play it at once so they could cut down on servers, but can you imagine how annoying it would be to try to play a SINGLE PLAYER game of Crysis and be told you can't because too many other people are playing right now?

Modding will cease to exist.

Plus they miss out on many parts of the world who don't currently have high speed internet and big monthly quotas. They say an average gamer plays for 60 hours a month and it would take 12 full days to use up a comcast cap. Well, at that rate with my internet cap I'll get 13.8 hours a month, assuming I don't use the internet for anything else.

Will all resolutions be supported? If I want to play on a 2560x1600 30" lcd, which has double the pixels of 1080p, will it allocate more server resources to render it for me? With the numbers they give for using up quota, the game is streamed in at around 2-3Mbit/s. A 60Hz 1080p display requires 944Mbit/s. How lossy is the codec they are using? I don't want video compression artefacts on my games.

Maybe for professional competitive gaming it's an ok idea, since there's less chance of cheating (still possible though, aimbots using image processing to spot moving targets, input macros, etc) and everyone has an equal setup, but for general home use this is just stupid.
Lan parties won't work. If 20 people meet in one place to have a lan party, it will take 20x the bandwidth for them to play a game. Using the same 12 days of comcast cap that they mentioned earlier, a 20 person lan will burn through it in 14 hours (or 41min on my internet connection). I've been lans which go for longer than 14 hours.

Lag doesn't seem too bad on many games because they do things to hide it like make player direction client authoritative (since a mouse can change direction so quickly). Make it that every mouse move needs to be sent to the server and see how fun it is to play an fps.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by xavier »

I agree with Sinbad that direct digital distribution is the future. I agree with Kojack that this idea won't fly (if only because it's been tried and failed many times in the recent past -- the VC landscape is littered with failures at this, mostly for reasons of marketing).

It's a neat technology, but so were the satellite phone, IPv6 and the physics co-processor.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by stoneCold »

Kojack wrote:Maybe for professional competitive gaming it's an ok idea, ...
Professional/competitive gamers would beat you if they read this sentence, since they aim for the lowest ping they can get, and even if there is the slightest lag or even just a laggy feeling of a game, they would complain all day long :lol:
In essence, this technology might be ok for casual game(r)s ([hint]Wii'ish games[/hint]), but for no more imo.
xavier wrote:It's a neat technology, but so were the satellite phone, IPv6 and the physics co-processor.
That sums it up quite well imo.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by _tommo_ »

Maybe in 20 years... now it's just useless.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by darke »

Standard solution looking for a problem. Wouldn't surprise me if they're getting almost all their VC funding on the "eliminates piracy" bandwagon.

Given the "played on a TV set" quote, it wouldn't surprise me if it was the standard NTSC 720×480 resolution, probably interlaced just to save half the bandwidth. I can see how this would actually be vaguely stream-able, and relatively inexpensive on the server end.

Really though, I've no idea what demographic they're trying to target with this. People with high-speed, low latancy internet, who don't have a decent computer/console, but still want to play "hardcore" demographic games like Crysis, I wouldn't think would exist. Unless the whole Crysis thing was just to generate headlines and they're actually just going to stream more casual friendly games, or something.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Speedo »

Kojack wrote: Will all resolutions be supported? If I want to play on a 2560x1600 30" lcd, which has double the pixels of 1080p, will it allocate more server resources to render it for me? With the numbers they give for using up quota, the game is streamed in at around 2-3Mbit/s. A 60Hz 1080p display requires 944Mbit/s. How lossy is the codec they are using? I don't want video compression artefacts on my games.
There is a chart (which I suspect is on the optimistic side) on their website. According to them you'd need a connection roughly 50-75 Mbps to play at that resolution.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Moohasha »

They compare this to streaming music and videos, but there's a huge difference between those medias and games, namely size and playback. Songs are thousands of times smaller than most games, and movies tend to be watched from start to finish. Yeah, you may skip around, but the video only has to buffer a few seconds ahead before playback can start.
To stream an entire game is either going to kill loading times, graphics, or performance. It may be possible, but I think many people will still chose consoles/PCs simply because of the superior performance you'll get in them.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Kojack »

Professional/competitive gamers would beat you if they read this sentence, since they aim for the lowest ping they can get, and even if there is the slightest lag or even just a laggy feeling of a game, they would complain all day long :lol:
Well, I didn't mean professional competitive gamers who are sitting at home using their own pc and internet. :)
More like they gather at a venue, with a private server farm hooked to the gaming pcs with gigabit or better ethernet. So the players can use their own pcs and controllers but it's still kept secure by no actual client running locally.

But even that is pretty pointless, it's just the only reason I could think of that players might like it: no cheating.
Maybe an MMO like WOW which has crap response anyway would be ok. Or an internet cafe, they can have a private server farm out back of good computers, then put some cheap ass things out the front.


You can now sign up for the beta (if you are in america) on OnLive's website.
There is a chart (which I suspect is on the optimistic side) on their website. According to them you'd need a connection roughly 50-75 Mbps to play at that resolution.
That's not their website, that's a different company which lets you stream your own game from one pc to another. They say you need 8Mbit for 720p, but Onlive say only 5Mbit is needed.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by stoneCold »

Kojack wrote:More like they gather at a venue, with a private server farm hooked to the gaming pcs with gigabit or better ethernet. So the players can use their own pcs and controllers but it's still kept secure by no actual client running locally.
My point actually was, that how big your server farm ever will be, the bottleneck is still the transmission of the actual information (input, video, sound) and there will always be lag, unless the transmission happens with lightspeed. :D

[edit]: Of course this might only apply for very fast-paced games, although most of the main-stream esport games are all about fast reactions (in combination with other skills).
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by jjp »

The most interesting thing is that they claim to have video stream compression/decompression that just adds an additional delay of 1ms. I don't dismiss this thing upfront but I'd like to see it in action. If it is of interest does depend on price and image quality. Maybe such technology can replace gaming consoles in a few years.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by steven »

To add some fuel there was a GDC 2009 presentation:

Analyst: How OnLive Can Impact Consoles, Retail

Interesting part is that they want to use the Cloud technology.
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Re: Game without PC or console.... !

Post by Penguin »

steven wrote:To add some fuel there was a GDC 2009 presentation:

Analyst: How OnLive Can Impact Consoles, Retail

Interesting part is that they want to use the Cloud technology.
"The Cloud" is just a buzzword, it's nothing more then a server somewhere doing stuff for you.
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