Visual Studio 2010 Beta

[Moohasha]

http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/e ... fault.mspx
Not sure how long it's been available and I didn't see anything on the forums about it (except this thread on the developer's talk), so I thought I'd bring it up. I'm installing it right now.

Obviously, Ogre and all its dependencies will need to be recompiled with it, which looks like it is probably on its way (see linked thread above).

[nullsquared]

Is it true that ignores the system cleartype settings and blindly enables cleartype anyway? I'd install and check myself, but I'm too lazy to install the beta.

[Nauk]

No it forces f. cleartype upon you, totally anoying - my eyes been totally messed up after looking 1 hour into it. Also if you install it, it doesn't uninstall all the beta rubbish you get installed along. I only hope they will disable the cleartype at the release.

[nullsquared]

Argh that's what I heard. Definitely not trying the beta. Why the hell would they force cleartype on if the system clearly has cleartype turned off? (pun clearly intended)

[Moohasha]

Argh that's what I heard. Definitely not trying the beta. Why the hell would they force cleartype on if the system clearly has cleartype turned off? (pun clearly intended)

Hm...that is a little annoying. I don't mind too much (not yet, at least), but it should at the very least be an option to disable.
Personally, I really like the new Code Definition Window. Just place your cursor on something and it shows you where it's defined.

[_tommo_]

Hmm... why do you find so annoyng cleartype?
Windows 7 has it enabled by default but i don't see many changes, apart that the characters are antialiased now...

Anyway i think that the code definition windows already exists in visual studio 2008, but it's really wasted window space for me: after all, with OO you should know how to use something just from its signature

I was interested in this new visual studio because they said the new IntelliSense had to be smart as Visual Assist X, any news on that regard?
I could as well install it, but VC demos had the bad habit of leaving pieces around...

[Kojack]

Looks like this came out about 4 days ago, and it's not a virtual pc image like the last version (VS2010 CTP).
It should be finished downloading by the time I finish this post (1.11Mbytes/s).

I already use Cleartype, so it's not going to bother me (as long as it doesn't mess with the cleartype configuration (rgb pixel order, etc).

Hmm, from the blog of the author of Virtual Dub:

Apparently it's because unicode projects now have a different prototype for the main function.
http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=252

Ahh, download finished, time to install.

Ok, apparently the font thing is a known bug in WPF text rendering (known since at least november last year and still not fixed) of small fonts.
https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStu ... kID=380919
WPF text renderer looks like GDI cleartype.
It seems that VS2010 is one of the few programs that uses WPF for everything, so it's more noticeable.

[Kojack]

Kojack's VS2010 Experiences Part 1 - Installing

Hmm, the box for "send info about my install experiences to microsoft" is locked as enabled, you can't turn it off.

Out of the 4.4GB of stuff it installs, it insists on putting 3.2GB of it of C:, even if you tell it to put everything on another drive. My C: is really full, I'll only have 1GB free after this.
I tried turning off every install option so it installs nothing (no visual studio, sql server or anything) and it still wants to use 2.1GB of my C:. (Probably .Net 4 and .Net 3.5sp1, both of which is installs without letting you choose). I'll have to clean up some space.

On a positive side, F# is now included in VS2010. F# is kind of a .Net version of Occaml, a hybrid OO and functional language. It's been available for a while as a separate download, but now it's built in.

The installer is going very slowly.

[Nauk]

** edit ** readingskills--
Also what anoyed me, uninstalling it unlinks your .vcproj extension to unknown filetype. I did a quick testproject to see if there is anything that I would be really looking forward to, but my first premature impression is VC10 is mostly a cash generator for M$ instead of being a real improvment. And of course the rebirth of Basic in the form of F#? At least that what it appeared to be looking at it for 5 seconds while trying to sustain my eyesight. Anyway looking forward to read different opinions

[nullsquared]

Hmm... why do you find so annoyng cleartype?
Windows 7 has it enabled by default but i don't see many changes, apart that the characters are antialiased now...

In theory it's good until you use it for a while and all of a sudden you notice it's like you need glasses. The characters always seem out of focus because they are antialiased, so unless your face is glued to the screen your eyes get pretty strained. Just my $0.02.

And I heard intellisense was made better, too.

Except it wasn't. I lost the source, but apparently all they fixed was #ifdef blocks sometimes not being properly recognized along with some other small bugs. Nothing like VAX. Meaning, not only do you buy VS (unless you got a student ticket or something of the sort), but you also buy VAX because the built-in intellisense is next to useless.

[Kojack]

Kojack's VS2010 Experiences Part 2 - Finished Installing

Wow, that was the most annoying install I've had in years (well, since Visual Studio 2008 destroyed my XP install).
It took 1 hour and 7 minutes to install, and 4 reboots of vista.
I haven't even installed the msdn yet, it's 5am now and I really don't feel like starting another install.
Why does a damn compiler take way longer to install than Vista and Windows 7 combined?

Ok, time to start it up...

And of course the rebirth of Basic in the form of F#?

Umm, not quite. F# is a functional language based on Ocaml.

F# was developed as a pragmatically-oriented variant of ML that shares a core language with OCaml. Unlike other scripting languages it executes at or near the speed of C# and C++, making use of the performance that comes through strong typing. Unlike many type-inferred, statically-typed languages it also supports many dynamic language techniques, such as property discovery and reflection where needed. F# includes extensions for working across languages and for object-oriented programming, and it works seamlessly with other .NET programming languages and tools.

*succinct, type-inferred functional programming,
* interactive scripting like Python and other languages,
* the foundations for an interactive data visualization environment,
* the combination of type inference and safety, like that of ML,
* a cross-compiling core shared with the popular OCaml language,
* a performance profile like that of C#,
* easy access to the entire range of powerful .NET libraries and database tools,
* a foundational simplicity with similar roots to Scheme,
* the speed of native code execution on the concurrent, portable, and distributed .NET Framework.

An example of F# code:

Code: Select all

type Expr = 
  | Num of int
  | Add of Expr * Expr
  | Mul of Expr * Expr
  | Var of string
  
let rec Evaluate (env:Map<string,int>) exp = 
    match exp with
    | Num n -> n
    | Add (x,y) -> Evaluate env x + Evaluate env y
    | Mul (x,y) -> Evaluate env x * Evaluate env y
    | Var id    -> env.[id]
  
let envA = Map.of_list [ "a",1 ;
                         "b",2 ;
                         "c",3 ]
             
let expT1 = Add(Var "a",Mul(Num 2,Var "b"))
let resT1 = Evaluate envA expT1

Back to Visual Studio 2010...

Hmm, it's very blue (I use windows classic theme in vista with standard grey colours, so a blue compiler looks rather odd).
So far I've managed to compile 4 libs (SFML 2d engine), but not the exe which gives errors in the windows 7 api (I'm not using windows 7).
It's failed with Box2D and Pixel Toaster.

I've also had parts of it crash (the presentation font manager) during startup and shut down.


I've already had it crash to desktop twice.

[Nauk]

I heard a lot of good about Ocaml. It often being named with D together being among the most productive languages.

Code: Select all

* interactive scripting like Python and other languages,

Does that mean you can choose if it runs line-interpreted or byte-code compiled?

[Kojack]

Does that mean you can choose if it runs line-interpreted or byte-code compiled?

True ocaml can run line-interpreted, byte code vm and native assembly compiled.
F# should handle at least line interpretted and byte code with jit, like other .Net languages.

Hmm, the VC++ Directories config option (the global include and lib directories which apply to every project) has been removed from the options menu and instead turned into a per project setting. Each project gets it's own global directories page in the project properties dialog, and changing it in one project doesn't change it in another project (even in the same solution). Umm, isn't that kind of defeating the purpose of a global setting rather than using the still existing include and lib search directories in the compile and linking sections of the project properties?

Apparently the main error I'm getting (__RPC__out_xcount_part not defined) in most things I try to build is because the include order of directx and windows sdk is wrong, the windows sdk must be first. But since that's now a per project setting instead of global, it's going to be annoying to change it everywhere.
It must be reading the initial value from somewhere (an environment variable or something).

[Kojack]

I've finally gotten SFML (I wanted something small and graphical before attempting all of Ogre's dependencies) compiling and running.
To fix the __RPC__out_xcount_part' I had to include Rpcsal.h before windows.h. The only solutions on the net say it's the order of directx and the platform sdk in the include path, but I tried that and it didn't work.

Oh yeah, to change the global include path, you have to go to the property manager (I never even knew it existed), open a build configuration and open Microsoft.Cpp.Win32.user. Inside of that are the include and lib directories which all projects inherit. Well, some of them, there's more added to that but I can't find them.

I can reliably crash vs2010 by doing the following:
Paste the name of an include file into a cpp. Press home. Type #include. When I hit space to separate the #include and the name, vs2010 crashes to desktop every time.

Another fun thing from the virtualdub blog:

Code: Select all

int a=4;
unsigned int b=2;
int nItems = std::min(a,b);

VS2010 puts 4 into nItems.
They've added a new template for std::min which takes 1 value and a predicate function. Here's it's code:

Code: Select all

#if _HAS_CPP0X
template<class _Ty,
class _Pr> inline
const _Ty& (min)(const _Ty& _Left, _Pr)
{	// return _Left as smallest
	return (_Left);
}

So it ignores the predicate and always returns the left value.
If the 2 args to std::min are different types (like signed and unsigned) then it doesn't match the version which takes 2 values, it instead matches the template with the unused predicate. You have to cast all args to the same type if you want it to work correctly.

Well, it's definitely a beta. There's a lot of work left for them to do.

Now to try pixel toaster again. It's a tiny lib, but it gave bizarre errors.

[steven]

And I was on the verge of installing VC10. Thanks Kojack The VC10 beta Killer

[nullsquared]

Wow. I really don't understand some of the changes they're making. What is their thought process?

"Hey, looks like things are going good for VS08, so now let's make some outrageous and completely absurd changes to make it even better "

"Ok, first one the TODO list, hm... std::min() needs a predicate. Not that it's gonna use the predicate, no, instead it'll just return the value. But ya' never know when them professionals are gonna start using a predicate for std::min(). Hey, this might break lots of old code but then that means that the code is not Microsoft Approved ™ so it must suck anyway."

"Next: we're going to add blurry fonts to the whole application and call it cleartype. Then, we'll release that as the beta and express edition. When we release the professional edition, we'll have a professional option called 'Microsoft TrueClear Font Rendering ™' which will remove the blurry fonts and just render them like any other sane application would. Man, this is so great! "

...

[Kojack]

I didn't want to be the VC10 beta killer, but they aren't exactly going out of their way to stop me (you know, by making it WORK).

Pixel Toaster's problems are even stranger. For those who don't know it, Pixel Toaster is a tiny dll which gives you a 32bit rgb or 128bit float pixel buffer, and a window to render it in (with high speed conversions to any screen format and scaling to different resolutions in real time). It's made for pure per-pixel software rendering. It's 1 cpp and 4 headers that compile into a dll.

So far every time I try to compile it or it's demos I get this error for every project:

Code: Select all

Error: Failed to write to log file "Release\BuildLog-.htm". Could not find a part of the path 'D:\vista_apps\visual studio 2010\Common7\IDE\Release\BuildLog-.htm

I went into the project settings and deleted the build log path, it now says:

Error: The expression "$([System.IO.Path]::(, ))" cannot be evaluated. The path is not of a legal form. C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\Microsoft.CppBuild.targets

If I try to build any of them again, it tells me:

Error: Cannot start a build because a build is already in progress.

Even though there's no other builds running (checked in task manager).


On the plus side, the only blury font is in the menus. The solution explorer, output window and source code area aren't doing it.

[_tommo_]

[ot]
Thanks Kojack, i was searching something like PixelToaster for ages, it is really useful... more than VC10 for sure
[/ot]

[nullsquared]

On the plus side, the only blury font is in the menus. The solution explorer, output window and source code area aren't doing it.

Source code looks blurry to me.

[Nauk]

Wow. I really don't understand some of the changes they're making. What is their thought process?

That is what puzzles me ever since - Microsoft and Sony Online Entertainment (off topic) both have a very different definition of common sense , also shows applying common sense and practical thought has no relation whatsoever with the commercial success of software.

[betajaen]

I don't get the clear type hate. If we had monitors with insane pixel densities where fonts could be rendered at 300 DPI and look small then get rid of it, but for now leave it on.

I hate the toolbars and strange look of it. It just looks like a 12 year old loose with cracked version of Photoshop and gave up half way through. They should of taken a few employees from the Microsoft Office team and implemented Ribbons for toolbars, and come up something better for editing code.

However; I'm hear the internals and new features are top-notch, so that's one good thing.

[Klaim]

The second beta is available for download.


Will try to build the Ogre dependencies with it this time.

[xavier]

Out of the 4.4GB of stuff it installs, it insists on putting 3.2GB of it of C:, even if you tell it to put everything on another drive.

I ran into this installing VS2008 on Vista 64 -- the cause seems to be the presence of double (sometimes triple) the number of system (and.NET) libraries. The fact is that Windows is still completely bound to the *@#&@# C: drive (do we still have to have this nonsense in the Year Of Our Lord 2009?!?). You also cannot move the WinSxS directory to another drive (it requires hard-links to happen on the C: drive and you therefore eliminate the ability ever to use, for example, Windows Update).

So Kojack's comments are not specific to VS2010, but to WinSxS (and likely the ever-increasing number of .NET versions that come with each successive VS version).

[Klaim]

Are your sure it's the "C:" drive? Maybe it's more the "windows system" drive? I know Windows will not allow sharing the same way on the drive that hold the system files.

[xavier]

Are your sure it's the "C:" drive?

Nope -- I just know that every web resource I found that talked about how to move WinSxS said that it's "at your own risk" and talked about the hard-link issue (the techniques involved in the WinSxS move require soft-links to be made).