War in South Ossetia

reptor · Post by **reptor** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:02 pm

Kojack wrote:
Heheh, 142 million people against...well, 4.6 million people? How does that sound?
Completely meaningless, since obviously the entire population of a country doesn't march off to fight at the same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... tal_troops
Russian has 3,396,100 total troops (active, reserve and others). Georgia has 279,200. Germany has 606,362. So germany may have 20 times the population, but it's military is only just over double the size of Georgia.

79.7 million is somehow more than 4.6 million? Of course it's not
You might want to fix that...

It is not completely meaningless.

It was brought up here by tau and he did say "population" and not "number of troops". I was replying to that.

But it is clear to us also that the number of troops Russia has greatly exceeds that of Georgia's.

Also, of course the maximum number of troops a country can have is some percentage of the total population below 100 %. Let's say that the countries are able to have 10 % of its total population in its military (at least here in Finland 10 % is a realistic figure). Take 10 % from Russia and 10 % from Georgia... that's like 14.2 million against 460,000...

Also you have to consider that the number of military troops is not the only thing that contributes to a nation's ability to wage a war. Women who stay home go to work in the factories to produce weapons and ammunition and they treat the wounded. They make clothes and also produce food and so on. So it is not right to only talk about the number of troops.

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:32 pm

and read this, please:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 97498.html

The Independent - UK press
Russia the bad guys? Who are the West trying to kid?

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:51 pm

Beatheart wrote:and read this, please:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 97498.html

The Independent - UK press
Russia the bad guys? Who are the West trying to kid?

I am not surprised. People are free to express their opinion, and unlike in Russia, they don't need to worry about their well-being if they do so in a way that is critical of people in power.

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:45 pm

warmi, all that you say is a bull sheet!

Watch this: http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=ySWm76IZ0 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFcaNM2J ... re=related
12 year old girl caught up in South Ossetian conflict speaks to Fox News

text about this: http://kremlinology.wordpress.com/2008/ ... -conflict/

And you steel saying that US media tells truth???

KungFooMasta · Post by **KungFooMasta** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:26 pm

Beatheart wrote:and read this, please:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 97498.html

The Independent - UK press
Russia the bad guys? Who are the West trying to kid?

Beatheart, its pretty easy to see the author is very biased in that article...

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:51 pm

Beatheart wrote:warmi, all that you say is a bull sheet!

Watch this: http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=ySWm76IZ0 ... re=related
12 year old girl caught up in South Ossetian conflict speaks to Fox News

text about this: http://kremlinology.wordpress.com/2008/ ... -conflict/

And you steel saying that US media tells truth???

Doesn't matter ... A wise man once said:

A free press can of course be good or bad, but, most certainly, without freedom it will never be anything but bad.

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:10 pm

New coments on YouTube!!! Check!!!

it's so clear that Youtube has deleted comments, because Youtube is the USA media company. It's a shame for USA citizens when their government cheated them all the time of this war. Now it's funny to hear that the USA is a country of freedom. Damn politics. The USA - a country of double standards, lol.

Post by **haffax** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:48 pm

So here is my take on the situation as seen from now. Might of course change in the future when new facts become available, but a provisional assessment seems to be doable now.

Even though our Russian forum users in this thread foil it a bit, I grew more and more confident with the Russian position in this conflict. Not quite as strong as Beatheart&Co though. I still believe Russia was not too unhappy when Georgia started this war and Russia's backing was a vital element in the provocations by South Ossetian troups, that provoked Georgia's attack.

Russian administration seems to be quite helpless when it comes to manipulate opinion in western countries, Saakashvili seems to be gifted in that regard, but might also be because of his professional help(via). Russia doesn't allow western media in South Ossetia, while Georgia is eager to show western journalists all the good places. While Gori goes around the world, Georgian scorched-earth-policy in Tskhinvali is widely ignored. In almost every aspect western media relies on Georgian reports and ignores everything else. When reports of one war party are presented as facts, then you know something is wrong with news coverage.

Everyone and their sister are now beating on Russia, but Georgia started the conflict, as seems to be apparent now.

When following the news coverage over the last few days, Russia was accused of many different things, most turned out to be not true. ("Russia attacked oil pipeline!", "Russia is going for Tbilisi!", ...)
It made me wary when German coverage reported the few tanks in Gori to be a panzer division. The guys had no clue. From the looks of it this could have been a battalion at most. And all they did was destroy ammunition depots in Gori barracks. What reports didn't tell us then is that Russia was even allowed to do this according to the treaty they signed. Of course when it is now reported it turns out to be a loop-hole used by those cunning war mongers.

Since Russia doesn't deliver pretty pictures and Medvedev and Putin don't give interviews, it is very easy for Saakashvili to fall into victimhood uncontested.

As for the goals of the parties, I don't know what Saakashvili expected when he attacked. Maybe he expected a stronger backing by the USA, but still unclear. Assessing Russia's position is easier. They already said stronger backing of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is a direct consequence of EU/USA's handling of the Kosovo. If Serbia's territorial integrity can be violated, so can Georgia's. The situation and history of both are comparable and I don't see how one can endorse Kosovo's independency with a straight face and not concede the same for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The roles of the backing powers are switched but everything else is comparable.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:20 am

haffax wrote:Everyone and their sister are now beating on Russia, but Georgia started the conflict, as seems to be apparent now

You seem to be a bit confused.
On one hand you are claiming it was S. Ossetians who provoked the attack.. just a couple of lines later you seem to accuse Georgians of being the aggressor.

Since Russia doesn't deliver pretty pictures and Medvedev and Putin don't give interviews, it is very easy for Saakashvili to fall into victimhood uncontested.

Pretty pictures ? What planet do you live on ?
The Russians are basically destroying and stealing everything in their path ( not the first time and most likely not the last ) - there is no need for a false claim of victimhood .

tau · Post by **tau** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:32 am

haffax wrote: As for the goals of the parties, I don't know what Saakashvili expected when he attacked. Maybe he expected a stronger backing by the USA, but still unclear.

I tend to agree with your position, haffax

I think Saakashvili wants to join NATO, and this conflict is a short path. Georgia was declined NATO membership due to Georgian government/economical instability.
McCain is also making comments that his presidency will bring Georgia that membership. But NATO is the rudiment of the Cold War and already dysfunctional...

warmi wrote: The Russians are basically destroying and stealing everything in their path ( not the first time and most likely not the last )

Wow, warmi. That's a sweeping generalization you've got there... How about US troops? Do they plant flowers in Iraq?
So far, Russia is playing the Good Cop, and Georgia - little sneaky jackal... We'll see the rest of it very soon.

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:59 am

I've really disappointed about "fair and balanced" interpretation of the war in American media. Nobody even mentions that Georgia started the war and leveled the whole city, killing 2000 civilians, and Russia just responded to Georgian attack. Everybody is so focused on "evil" Russia!! Russia did what it had to do, it protected its citizens, and saved a small nation of South Ossetia from genocide. It feels like "free" American media is controlled by the government.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:13 am

tau wrote:
I think Saakashvili wants to join NATO, and this conflict is a short path. Georgia was declined NATO membership due to Georgian government/economical instability.

So .. ahem, do you see a contradiction here ?

Wow, warmi. That's a sweeping generalization you've got there... How about US troops? Do they plant flowers in Iraq?
So far, Russia is playing the Good Cop, and Georgia - little sneaky jackal... We'll see the rest of it very soon.

Generalization ?
Just the facts as reported by western reporters on the ground.

In any case, it doesn't matter ... given your admiration for the Soviet Union , Putin indeed would appear to you as a moderate and frankly perhaps even a weakling.

Handicap · Post by **Handicap** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:05 pm

Most of Polish citizens and politicians are afraid of Russia, because of 40 years of soviet domination. There are some units who does not show fear, like our President KaczyÅ„ski (pron. Kutchynsky ?), but now most of my countrymen blame President about the all evil of the world. This happens because of propaganda in Poland. Famous defeat of communism was not exactly that what it should be. Communists are still very influent, because there was some kind of statement - communists said - We are taking the economy, you (Poles) take the power. This was effect of Walesa's action. He was an SB agent. We have now democracy, but without abilities. Goverment and economy was and is filled with post communists, they have mass-media and still are controlling our minds. Politicians who want to change Poland, solve the problem of communist like this had been done in Germany and Czech Republic, are being ridiculed in TV and papers, so there is no way to change Poland. Although there are small positive changes, like friendship with USA, enterance to NATO and EU. But these are only simbols, true economy is still under post-soviet control and normal citizen is limited. Polish president (not goverment and not most of citizens) is helping Georgia, because he want to show the world what happens here. Russian goverment are hunting occasion to conquer old soviet countries back. Today - Georgia, Tommarow - Poland... So he decided to warn the world about this actions. He has no chance winning next election because of propaganda, which started with double power after won of right-wing party which does not have connections with communists (this party was "removed" from goverment after... 1.5 year...)

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:27 pm

I don't know what are you talking about. When you saying "comunists" you mean Russia? Russia is not communistic country, almost 17 years!!! I dont want to speak about democracy - US democracy is criminal, And Poland helps US and Georgia.
Don't be affraid of Russia.

And what about US missels in Poland aimed on RUSSIA?

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:03 pm

Beatheart wrote:I don't know what are you talking about. When you saying "comunists" you mean Russia? Russia is not communistic country, almost 17 years!!! I dont want to speak about democracy - US democracy is criminal, And Poland helps US and Georgia.
Don't be affraid of Russia.

I think you should just chill out a bit.

warmi · Post by **warmi** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:03 pm

Beatheart wrote:I don't know what are you talking about. When you saying "comunists" you mean Russia? Russia is not communistic country, almost 17 years!!! I dont want to speak about democracy - US democracy is criminal, And Poland helps US and Georgia.
Don't be affraid of Russia.

I think you should just chill out a bit.

Game_Ender · Post by **Game_Ender** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:17 am

Beatheart wrote:US democracy is criminal

www.dictionary.com wrote:crimÂ·iÂ·nal â€“adjective
1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime

So how exactly is the US democracy guilty of crime?

Beatheart · Post by **Beatheart** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:49 pm

US democracy is crime because US:
1. Support crimes in South Ossetia and support Georgian government - train soldiers, sell weapon, finance.
2. Lie to americans and all the world.

Don't be SO blinded that you don't even want to admit the fact. It's probably scary to realize that all around you is a good set up US government propaganda.
If some don't even wanna poen there eyes to the truth. Well Good Luck on your president elections. World peace depends on your choice!!!

Post by **sinbad** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:24 pm

Closing this topic down now, I think all that can be said, has been said from both sides of the argument.

I'm happy to see that even though people have their own opinions, which are obviously at odds on this subject, that the discussion stayed mostly rational, and name-calling / trolling was mostly avoided. That's really important for the long-term survival of this off-topic forum, so well done most of you for a reasoned and relatively calm debate.